Emily Seal, Executive Director Clio Health on Creativity as a Competitive Advantage, Human Connection, and the Power of Craft.

Welcome to the Pharma Brands Podcast. I'm your host, Neil Follett, and in this episode, we tackle the question that has been asked in advertising since the dawn of time. To submit or not to submit? That is the question. Today's guest, Emily Steele, is the executive director of Cleo Health. And we recently sat down to talk about why health advertising matters, the state of global creativity, and yes, why you should really submit your work to the Cleos. Here's my conversation with Emily. Emily, thank you for joining us this morning.

It's a pleasure.

Thanks for having me. So, how does one become the executive director of Cleo Health? Like when you were, was with young Emily on the playground thinking, like one day I'm gonna run an incredibly prestigious award show? Like, how does someone get to where you are? And then we'll talk about where you are.

For sure. I mean, I definitely at about age five was writing this down on my board, my going back to school board. What do I want to be when I grow up? No. Um, to be frank with you, Neil, I had no idea this job existed until I started working at the CLIO's, which was actually 11 years ago, a little more than 11 years ago now. Um, been with the CLIO since 2014, and my roles here have evolved a number of different times. I have worked in the events team. I have worked on all of the different awards vertical programs, curating juries, building categories, running judging rooms. I helped build the internal technology system here. Um, I've worked on partnerships as well as organizational operations. And so by the end of 2019, I was the vice president of operations at the CLIOs overseeing all of our different vertical awards programs, um, as well as technology and partnerships. But I had a moment where I realized from a personal perspective, I really needed to have a deeper meaning and a deeper why. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Simon Sinek's TED Talk, The Why. It's many years old now. But um, although some of the examples don't stand up, I think the core sentiment that he expresses stands. And that's really people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it. And I think I started to apply that to me personally and wanted to dive deeper into why it was that I woke up every morning to build something, to do something, um, to be a part of an organization. So for me, I needed to step away from the Clio's to find that why. Um, the CEO, Nicole Burcell, was very supportive and said, of course, you're always welcome back here, but we want to help you find your why. So I stepped away for a little bit, um, spent some time uh working at a small events company where we supported a lot of nonprofits. And of course, 2020, as the pandemic rolled in, was not the best time to be working in events, but not only did it teach me how to be adaptable, like all of us, but it taught me a lot about my why because we were working with the James Beard Foundation, which was an organization that supports chefs in the restaurant industry, and of course, um, an industry that was incredibly decimated during that time. And watching that organization pivot from focusing on their awards and a lot of their outward prestige into truly the core of what they were trying to do, which was support those people and that community, it made me realize that's my why. Um, it's important to me to make sure that what I do is supporting people, growth, leaving the world a better place, all of that fun, altruistic um perspective, but is very true to my core. So, in talking to Nicole, who remained my mentor, she said, What about Clio Health? And Clio Health has been a program that's been around since 2009. It's actually one of our first vertical programs, but it had never really had a true leader running the program, evolving it, and kind of growing it. And given everything that was happening in the space of health, we wanted to take the opportunity to bring health up to speed with the world, everything's health. Um, you know, health is everywhere, it's everything in all of your choices. So I came back to run the Clio Health program. And that's how I ended up the executive director here. And I essentially swallowed my pride and I met with anybody and everybody in the industry in the creative space that would meet with me to learn about the industry, to really understand what were the gaps, what are the opportunities, how is creativity helping grow creative communications and the health industry. And so walking around with my notebook of uh acronyms, which everybody, I think, as they transition into the everyone that transitions into health from a consumer or a non-health background uses that almost like a security blanket. Um walking around with that and learning so much from so many experts in the industry, I've been able to take that and work with the incredible team at the CLIO's to to grow the program um and kind of expand it. So that's how I ended up where I am.

I too had the notebook with the cheat sheet of acronyms. That's sort of like a secret handshake in the industry, if you can say that. It is. 100%. It's your initiation for sure. Yeah, yeah. Situate us a little bit in the Cleo health uh maybe category, and then um, or vertical, and then I want to talk a little bit about changes. You mentioned sort of how much has changed. It's been around since 2009. Um kind of where are we today? Because health, I mean, health is getting sort of slapped on everything. What does health mean in the context of the Clio Health Awards? Uh, and then let's talk a little bit about how that's changed, where you see that going. Like let's talk about what the vertical looks like right now.

So I imagine most of your listeners are familiar with the Clio Awards, um, founded in 1959, celebrates creative excellence in advertising around the world. Originally it was focused in television commercials and radio ads, but obviously the organization since then has grown to recognize that advertising, communications, and creativity is so much more than just television commercials and radio ads. And over the years, evolving not just in what we recognize in advertising for creativity, but also realizing that different verticals and specific industries required programs that were tailored to recognize those challenges and those opportunities. So Clio Health was one of the uh first verticals we actually launched, specifically focusing on how pharmaceutical advertising and marketing is quite different. And each of our different programs allows us to curate specific categories as well as specific jurors. So, if you'll allow me to kind of give you the context, the Clio Awards is our flagship award show that's been around since 1959. We also have Clio Sports, which is sports marketing and advertising. So that's gonna be media brands, sports brands, athletes, leagues, teams, Clio Entertainment, which focuses on TV, movie, and gaming advertising and marketing, and Clio Music, which is all about music marketing. So artists, um, including Taylor Swift's Life of a Showgirl, um, as well as um music marketing and use of music and marketing. And so Clio Health, the way that uh it evolved, like I said, started very focused on pharmaceutical. But as I returned to the program, what we wanted to do was acknowledge that every brand is a health brand. Like you mentioned, everybody's looking to be a part of the health industry, whether it's through purpose marketing or advertising or through just recognizing that that's what the pandemic really put in everybody's mind as far as consumers is at the core, what's most important is your health. So when I returned, it was similar to many of our competitor award shows, really focused on pharmaceutical and health and wellness. But in digging and exploring further, we looked into what exactly is the World Health Organization defining health as? And it was very expansive and very inclusive. And I think that's important because I think it is so much more than just like they state, the absence of infirmary. It's health at all from all angles. So for our program, we've evolved it now such that there are tracks for pharmaceutical, of course, um, which is always going to remain a priority because it is different and we want to make sure the categories are curated such that they allow for celebration of that work within the context of some of the challenges and restraints and regulations. We have health, health institutions and services. So these are your hospital systems, your insurances. What they're trying to market and communicate to you is very different than a product. So we um we have a specific track for that type of work. We have lifestyle wellness and over-the-counter. So that is going to be more of your nutrition, your functional health, your holistic health, wellness, um, as well as health awareness and advocacy. So your nonprofits and education organizations that are driving awareness and advocacy initiatives. And then finally, we added consumer brand health initiatives. We saw so much consumer brand work in the health and wellness grouping of work that we wanted to find a space for it because there is a lot more flexibility when you're thinking about what can Ford do in their advertising and marketing versus a health brand. Um, but we also wanted to recognize that so many of those consumer brands are finding ways to insert themselves in health through a lot of purpose marketing and advertising. But so we see health, to answer your question, is very much holistic. Um and that's the way that we approach the structure of our program at CleoHouse.

And this is maybe a bit um, it's probably a bit specific and also a bit selfish because I'm sitting here in Toronto talking to you and you're in New York. How do you handle, let's say, pharma, for example? There are such different kinds of regulatory contexts all over the world. How do you how do the juries navigate a submission from Canada, for example, against a submission from the US that have they're just regulated so differently?

Exactly. To your point, it is a global award show. And so I think what's important to acknowledge here is two things. One, we curate juries that include experts, both marketing experts from brands as well as creative experts from agencies and organizations working on the on the actual work to serve on the jury, so that we're ensuring that there is cultural context during the judging experience. But additionally, the way that the Clio Awards work and Clio Health works is that nothing's ever competing against anything else. We have no minimum or maximum number of statues. So, for example, if we're looking at the film category within pharmaceutical, if there are 10 entries, the jury gets to choose based on the criteria of creativity and creativity alone. What does all this work in isolation deserve? So, not comparing the work, is it better than this or worse than this? But from a creative perspective, do we find this to be gold-winning or gold-worthy of work? And so there may be categories where there are no statues, there may be categories where there are many golds. And so I think that that's what's important to acknowledge is the way that we structure the program is to allow for things to shine within their own context. And that's exactly why we created those advertiser categories for pharmaceutical lifestyle wellness, is because I think the context in which all of that work lives is very important when you're considering the creativity and the value of creative in the work.

So let's talk about creativity. Like, what is creativity? How are you seeing this category evolve? And you can pick kind of any one of those, because again, I appreciate like health has a whole bunch of sort of subcategories within it. But what are you seeing, you know, maybe post-pandemic in terms of uh, you know, what's being submitted, what's being recognized, give a little sense of you know, your view into what is really sort of global creativity in the category.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'll stick to pharmaceuticals since I think that's probably what your audience will be most interested in. But I think um, you know, some of the themes that we see, and I will say overall in the space of health, particularly pharmaceutical advertising and creativity, we've seen such an evolution and all in positive ways. So I'm sure you'll remember this, but pharmaceutical for many creatives used to be a little bit of the ugly stepchild, if you will, of where you were going to go.

Exactly.

You you go there for your career to die. But what's been so fascinating is that it is has become the exact opposite. Some of the most amazing and well-respective creatives in consumer advertising have have made their way into pharmaceutical advertising and in the health space. And I think that is for a number of reasons. One, I think there's incredible opportunity there, but I think that there has been a bit of a groundswell movement to evolve the creativity in the space of pharmaceutical advertising. So some of the things that we're starting to see as themes or trends that are kind of elevating that creative is storytelling versus selling. And I think that when you consider traditional pharmaceutical advertising, it's very often functional. This is the benefit of our product, this is why you would choose this versus how are you connecting with your audience? And I think that that health being so rooted in humanity has has kind of needed that storytelling element. And I I see that in the creative that that is being put out there. I mean, I think of um last year here in the States, Abbott put out a piece um for diabetes with the song Under Pressure on it. And it was this experience of this man who had diabetes where he was being tagged with all these different comments that um that people in his life had for him, such that so that the the message of the advertising campaign was very much most people don't seek help because they feel so stigmatized. And I think that getting to the root of that human experience and the storytelling and creative advertising has been monumental in both the effectiveness of the work, but also in the real uh creative excellence of the work. And so we've been seeing a lot of that being recognized and celebrated in the award shows. I think one of the tools and trends that has always been a part of advertising, particularly in pharmaceutical, but has continued to evolve is craft. You know, I think regulations can't touch craft, and I think that's a really magical concept when you think about pharmaceutical advertising and creative ideas kind of are elevated through that craft of advertising and marketing. So if you think about a great example of this, is the Viagra Make Love Last piece that was awarded in Cannes this year. It's, you know, when you when you think about what they were able to do in the space of both the regulations in the country, but also thinking about how they used time-lapse photography, they collaborated with an artist, they were able to tell the story. It was so much more about the message over the product. It really was finding a way to use craft to outsmart some of the regulations. And I think that that is what we're seeing more of. And then I think the last thing that's really important is we think about advertising in general, but certainly also in the health space, is this concept of meshing entertainment with advertising. Things are becoming much more content-driven. And that's because of the diversification of channels. Everything is now yes and we're not just doing TVCs, we're expanding into social, expanding into um different content platforms because that's where the audiences are. So things like Friedrich's back from 21 Grams that was awarded, that you know, social series that infused humor or seeing New Zealand's the best place to have herpes was a great example of just finding content that people were compelled by and interested in being a part of the conversation. And they were watching it not because it was an advertisement, but because it was entertaining and educational. Um, so I think that, you know, storytelling versus selling craft for sure and entertainment uh by way of diversification of channels has been really big from what we've been seeing, both in entries as well as awards.

And I have to imagine that, you know, some of that is just it's like a maturation of the industry. I mean, infirm marketing's been around for a really long time, but it's a much more, I think, complicated media landscape. So you'd need to be a little bit smarter about stuff. You did mention there's an influx of I've got my air quotes going outsiders, right? So the outside creatives coming in. And I think sort of questioning the exactly where that the lines are drawn, right? Like there's a I get that there's a box, but how close can you get to the edge? I think is uh is a question that's being asked. And uh it's it's interesting. We, in addition to this podcast, we host events and we just wrapped up a Salesforce effectiveness event. And you know, one of the themes obviously is sort of storytelling and how do you engage in H with HCPs. I appreciate that a lot of what we're talking about here is consumer-based marketing. But I think that in pharma especially, there's this kind of gravitational pull back towards the data. The data is what gets a product approved in the first place. And the data is often the narrative is is grounded in the data. Sure. But the data often doesn't tell a very good story. And I think that moving from the data to the impact is something that it sounds like a lot of the folks that are getting recognized in the Clio's recently are doing. But to me, that's that's where the the huge opportunity is. Like we have the most compelling stories in this category. Yeah, it's great. You can drive a car and the family gets reunited. So that's a you know, amazing auto story or that category. Like we save lives and change lives. And and I think that you know, what I think of some of the most compelling health advertising or marketing or content that I've seen, I mean, it can bring you to tears.

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, if you don't mind me interrupting, I think if you didn't interrupt, I would just keep going and it would it would be painful for everybody.

So I actually the listeners appreciate it.

I know. So I um I was gonna say, you know, it's not just an influx when you're thinking of as far as quote unquote outsiders into the industry. It's not just in the space of creatives in advertising um agencies. We're also seeing it happen in the space of CMOs of some of these larger pharmaceutical agencies. And that has been very fascinating. You know, I think of uh Cleo Health Juror from last year, Gail Horwood from Novartis, and she was quoted um a few months ago saying, Creativity is not a luxury, it's a growth engine. And I think that that is a mentality that's saying instead of being so deep in our spreadsheets of data of how to do this, what's next, it's valuing. That creative element, which is often very difficult to directly tie to success. But in so many studies, we know creative matters. It's not just a hunch, right? So many studies are showing that high quality creatives drives that business success. Whether it's uh, you know, Nielsen research or Cantar research showing that, you know, creative campaigns are four times more efficient at driving business results. Creative effectiveness equals business effectiveness. And I think that seeing that from the space of the organizations and from the marketers has been really valuable in pushing the industry forward as well.

Um I it makes me think of that quote, and it gets attributed to a bunch of different people that, you know, creativity may well be the last legal, unfair competitive advantage that we can take over our competition. Like I always, that's a I've I've put that in many a in many a deck. I love that. Okay, so um I I I would be remiss if I didn't open up a line of questioning around AI and AI and creativity, and how you guys are thinking about that at the Clio's and how you are hearing folks in the industry talk about it. What are you seeing from your vantage point when it comes to human-driven creativity or machine-driven creativity, as it may be?

Well, I think um I've been having a lot of conversations around it, like everybody in the industry, like everybody in the world. And I think that AI will be very much a part of the creative advertising industry. And I was speaking to somebody recently about where it fits in the process. And I think that, of course, right now, efficiency is table stake. I think that's really important to recognize and acknowledge that everyone's finding out the right ways from an efficiency standpoint to use AI in the process of creative advertising. If nothing else, it gives you the opportunity to share your creative idea in a much more visual way or in a much more complete way when you're pitching it to folks who may not be able to envision it. But the best, the best way that I've heard it talk about, be talked about is very much like the idea has to start with human insight, with human understanding and connection. And AI can help with the efficiencies of building it and making it come to life, but it's really going to be that human eye of craft and uh focus and honing in on the exact creative idea. So it's almost bookended. AI will be bookended very much by the human uh perspective and kind of the human touch. And I really do believe that. I think, especially when you're thinking about health, I said it earlier. Health is so deeply rooted in humanity and people and storytelling. And I think that there's something to be said about needing to be in touch with that, whether it's the patient community or the very individual stories. And so when we think about health creativity, I think that's always going to have a really important part of the creative process.

Well, and I also think that there's a chance. I mean, if it doesn't completely eradicate our entire field, let's not let's not spend a lot of time there. Um there's this, there's this like I think interesting potentially leveling of the playing field where smaller brands can I think start to creatively kind of punch above their weight class a little bit. Yeah. Um, when you think about the old days, it's kind of like, well, you you can only do good TV if you've got um, you know, forget the media buy, but just from the from the production standpoint, you know, you can only do good TV if you have a massive team and a million dollars to shoot a TV spot and you know, so and so and so, right. But now, I mean, you could do really quite great TV um on a on a on pennies on the dollar. And so it almost starts to become the those with the best story win as opposed to those with the biggest budget.

Right. It's it's this a it's this idea that AI is democratizing so much of the personalization, the targeting and distribution that creativity and storytelling really becomes that superpower. Yeah. So, you know, in a space where distribution has been democratized, you know, differentiation is not. And that's where creativity is really powerful.

Oh, democratization and differentiation. Um I I may I may use that. I'll have to attribute it to you, but exactly. Um so here's a here's a maybe this is like a bit of a softball question, but I feel like awards in general have this oddly polarizing effect uh in a lot of industries, and and you know, I don't think health is any different, where there's a category of agencies or brands or creative directors for whom awards are are very important. And then there is this sort of category that sort of oddly has this allergic reaction to the word awards, where you know, we don't submit for awards and we don't think awards are important, and there's almost this kind of derisive tone when the word award gets spoken. Why are awards important? Like why do you think that the Cleos are meaningful?

That's a great question. That's my why. Remember, we'll go back to Simon Sinek. Let's do it. I think that you know, the the Clio's mission is celebrating bold creativity that inspires and connects creators of today and tomorrow. And so for me, that means a lot of things. The the Clio's, as far as an organization, is really focused on yes, the awards and celebrating creative excellence, but we utilize those awards as a way to inspire the community to think boldly, to kind of push those boundaries. We want to find ways to celebrate creative work, not just in comparison to other creative work, but in the space of creativity. I think that if you don't see what's possible, you can't know how to challenge yourself to what's next. And I think that's the value of awards. I think, of course, you're also giving your team the opportunity to celebrate their successes. We at Clio Health developed a program called the Cleo Health Champions, recognizing that health specifically is so much more than just the creative team. Think about your chief medical officers on the team who are uh taking data and kind of translating it to you. Think about the strategists who are developing the insights. So, in addition to our work awards program at Cleo Health, we have a Clio Health Champions program to celebrate the people behind work. So I think what we try to do at the CLIOs is recognize that it's more than just a flash in the pan idea that was created simply to be recognized in the awards, but we're trying to celebrate creative ideas in all different ways with all different categories, such that it provides kind of a benchmark of what's possible. And what our programs do beyond that is that inspiration element. So whether it's our winner's gallery, which is free to the public, or looking at our ads of the worlds platform, which is a global database of ads, or the Muse by Cleos content uh hub that we have, we're always finding ways to just connect the community, inspire them, what's possible. And then I think the value that awards have, and particularly the Cleos and Cleo Health has, is that we're connectors. And I think that you and I uh both agree that kind of finding ways to celebrate that concept of all ships rise with a rising tide, having honest, candid communications so we can build community and we can learn and grow from each other is something that's really important. So I think that's also part of our awards platform, whether it's the judging experiences or the award shows or thought leadership events or you know, intimate salon dinners, we're bringing together creatives and marketers and emerging talent and we're trying to build a community that can continue to elevate creativity. Um, and I think that that's all incredibly valuable in the space of advertising, right? If if creativity is all about problem solving, then you know what more important space to problem solve than in the space of health? So all that's to say, I think that awards organizations and festivals and creativity has such value in making a difference in the world and finding different ways to communicate to consumers, patients, and healthcare providers. So that's why I think it's most valuable.

I and it was also a bit of a softball because I love awards programs. You were preaching to the converted.

No, like I I you know, my my theory, my theory when I, you know, I had an agency for a long time, and you know, my theory was you know, creativity is like a fire, but other pieces of creative are the oxygen that fuels that fire. You can't have a a raging inferno of creativity in a vacuum where there is nothing to fuel that. I love that. And you know, I would I would you know send my team out into the world and you know, we would go to conferences and and like honestly, I might you know more than half the time, there wasn't any direct line between, hey, you know what, I think I might be able to lift that ID and take it over to client X, but it seeing the way that different stories are told and the way different brands show up helps to create new connections that inevitably uh help whatever the problem is that you're that you're trying to tackle. And so submitting uh and not winning still gets you exposed to everybody else that's in your category, being a part of a jury. And to your point, uh digging into the CLIOs outside of just the yearly awards program is also like ways to sort of fuel that creative fire. So you touched on a on a few of your sort of assets, as it were, from the Clio's. Maybe tell people how they can engage with the CLIOs both with the like the big show and also throughout the year.

Absolutely. So our Clio Health program is open for entries. Um, the awards program will remain open through March. We have multiple deadlines. Our first deadline will be coming up in January. So you do have a few weeks to submit your work. And we recognize creative work, like I mentioned earlier in pharmaceutical health institutions and services, lifestyle, wellness over the counter, health awareness and advocacy, as well as consumer brand health initiative, and the executions of the creative work span from film to digital to integrated campaigns. And this year we've built a number of new platforms and categories in an effort to kind of continue to evolve. Like I mentioned, the Clio started just as television commercials and radio advertising, but as the industry evolves, so do our programs. So this year we're evolving into the space of recognizing culture advertising and creativity. So culture and advertising are at this really fun intersection, in my perspective, where it's very difficult sometimes to sell to tell when advertising is driving culture or if advertising and brands are tapping into current culture in really authentic ways. And it's been very fascinating to see how that is a new space for brands and for advertisers to utilize their creative prowess. So culture is something that we're building out. Um, we're building out the concept of, and this kind of answers a little bit of your question about the idea of some people have um a knee-jerk reaction to awards and may say, oh, well, these are creative ideas that are almost a flash in a pan, if you will, as far as an idea, it was award-winning, and then we move forward. What we wanted to do this year was develop out a category that really celebrates those lasting creative ideas that evolve, that have created brand platforms. For example, when you think of Dove's Real Beauty platform, that has been something that they've been able to carry out since the rank and photography execution that they did many years ago. And they evolve it with the different ideas each year, whether it's about social media bullying or it's about whether or not you feel beautiful for you know your hair or the way that you look. And we wanted to find a way to celebrate creativity that kind of evolves with that idea. So we've built out a specific category for work where we're focusing on evolving creativity. Another great example is Sick Kids in Canada. They do some amazing work and beautiful work, and it has has really been able to be something that each year they execute upon so well. And we want to celebrate that kind of work, that kind of lasting idea and creative platforms. So building out there. And then finally, I think what's also important to acknowledge when you think about what's new for the Clio's this year is um when I think about the future of what's happening in health, I think a lot about women's health. I think that women's health is something that um for many years has been severely underfunded, under-researched, underrepresented, underserved. Um for 51% of the population and what is it, 80% of the purchasing dispurching decisions in the households. It's kind of fascinating to think of how poorly they've been represented. And throughout our conversations with the community and a lot of the work that I do outside of just the awards, we opted to build a whole platform for women's health this year in partnership with the World Women Foundation, acknowledging and recognizing that that's a really important space to celebrate how creativity can make a difference. So that's something we're really excited about building out and hope to announce a few more things in the future about that. In addition to the awards program and submitting into the awards, I acknowledged and mentioned our champions program. So that's a way to submit folks that are a part of the creative success of your organization at any level on any team, whether it's strategy or medical, maybe it's a client that champions creative ideas internally. Um, if you're on the agency side, it could be someone in operations. It's really recognizing all the people behind the scenes who make creative success possible. So we celebrate the people, the work, and then our juries are another great way for people to be involved with the CLIOs. So at Clio Health, we have nine different juries that review different types of work. Nominating, either self-nominating or nominating colleagues or clients are a great way to get involved. Additionally, we've developed out an awards jury called our next up jury, which is really a way for us to give back to the emerging leaders in the creative space. So, who are those folks that in the next few years will be serving on those global award shows? How can we give them a masterclass in what it is to be on a jury? It's not as simple as just looking at work and making decisions. There's a lot of complexities to the process. And through the next step program, it gives us the opportunity to give them that masterclass under the guidance of mentors. So those are a few different ways, of course, thought leadership events throughout the year, um, as well as, you know, finding, finding ways to connect with me directly. I think that's another thing that we do at the CLEOS really well, especially at Clio Health, is we're an open door. And I think the best way for us to combat any of those aversions towards the awards, if you will, is to really have those conversations. And I I have made it a point since I've returned to the Cleos to really be open to that. And that's how we evolved, that's how we've grown. That's how you and I were connected.

Um I was gonna say, I can I can attest to your openness. Yes.

And I think that that's so important because again, all ships rise with a rising tide, and that's really what we're all about at the Cleos.

And people can find all of this at Cleos.com, I'm imagining.

You got it. Very good job. Thank you for dropping that for me.

You are welcome. So as we look to wrap up the conversation, I'm wondering if you can sort of turn your mind to all of this amazing creative that you've seen over the years. And is there a piece of work that stands out for you personally? Maybe it touches on your why a little bit. Maybe it's the kind of thing that is the oxygen that keeps you excited about running the program. But is there a piece of work that sticks out for you that you can talk to us about?

You know, Neil, I thought about a lot of recent work, but I'm trying to think of what is my one piece that I would say over the years, because that is a hard question. Um I think if I think about if there is a piece of work over the many years that I've worked at the Clio's that's stuck with me. It may have been during the first judging session that I conducted. So as part of the process, we bring the juries on site to discuss the work. And I was in front of a print room. And when I saw this work, I remember thinking this is exactly why I will remain at the Clio's and why creativity matters uh is this concept um of storytelling in such a powerful way. And and the work specifically was it was called 28 Too Many. Um, it happens here, and it was a print campaign about female genital mutilation, which I understand that may be an aggressive thing to talk about, but they they took flags and they sewed them up. And they had the tagline that was just very simple. It said, female genital mutilation doesn't only happen in faraway places. And they were flags of countries that were recognizable. They were not third world countries. It was this moment of realization, and it was just so stark and so clear from just the visual, what they were trying to convey. I remember tearing up in the room seeing this every time I saw it. So it's pieces like that. It's that piece. It's the Dove Real Beauty piece from last year about the girl who had uh an eating disorder, and you weren't sure if she survived. And it was really this moment where you realize that storytelling can change lives and creativity does matter. And so for me, it's it's that type of work that I think is my why. It makes a difference, it draws attention and awareness and hopefully helps people either through policy change or through educating them that they're not the only one. And I think that that that that's really my why. And I think that's really the the type of work that stays with me.

That is a big and uh uh inspiring and thoughtful uh place to end. Thank you so much for uh this conversation and for being as open as you've been uh uh to some random person reaching out to you to have these conversations. Uh it's been really great getting to know you. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Neil. It's a pleasure, and I'm happy to be on this journey of connecting creatives and Sharing creativity with the industry along with you and pharma brands.

Hi everyone, it's me again. I just wanted to say thanks. We've been doing this show now for a few years, and this marks episode number 30. We are only able to keep at it because really interesting guests give us some of their very valuable time, and really engaged businesses come on as partners, and mostly because you choose to make us part of your day. I appreciate all of that more than you know. So, from John and Kate, from our producer Daryl, and from me, we hope you all have a wonderful holiday break, and we look forward to you joining us back here in 2026.