Jessica Knox CEO at Metrix, on Changing Technologies, New Services and the Fundamentals of Understanding Your Audience.

[00:00:01] Welcome to Episode 10 of the PharmaBrands Podcast. I'm your host, Neil Follett. A very big thank you right off the bat for giving us a listen. If you enjoy what you hear, don't be shy. Go ahead and tell all your friends.

[00:00:13] Today, I'm chatting with Jessica Knox, CEO of our partner, Metrix. One of the many things I love about doing this show is getting the chance to talk with leaders about how they're managing their teams, their clients, and their businesses through change.

[00:00:26] The Metrix story is especially interesting as it spans 40 years, multiple geographies, and a whole host of service offerings.

[00:00:34] But enough of this intro. Let's get on with the show.

[00:00:39] Good morning, Jessica, on this very sunny morning. Thank you for joining us.

[00:00:43] Thank you for having me, Neil.

[00:00:44] I have so many questions, and I'm going to get deeper into Metrix and your background.

[00:00:49] But just to ground everybody that's listening, give me a who is Metrix kind of quick overview just to bring everybody up to speed and set us off.

[00:00:57] Absolutely. So the short version, and I'm sure we'll get into the longer version later, is that-

[00:01:03] We've got time for both.

[00:01:04] We've got time for both.

[00:01:05] Metrix is a boutique agency.

[00:01:07] We help life sciences companies elevate their internal team performance through training.

[00:01:13] We help them market to healthcare professionals, and we help them support their patients.

[00:01:18] When you say we help them support their patients, how so?

[00:01:21] Really through the design of patient support materials.

[00:01:25] So we don't do the full implementation of patient support programs, but we do more of the design for patient support.

[00:01:34] Okay. So lots going on.

[00:01:37] Often agencies and businesses start somewhere and then evolve and broaden.

[00:01:45] On that list of things that Metrix does currently, where did you start?

[00:01:50] What was the sort of original DNA of the agency?

[00:01:53] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:01:54] And the DNA and origin of Metrix is really central to our story and how we help our clients.

[00:02:00] We started in learning and development.

[00:02:03] We started almost 40 years ago.

[00:02:06] Oh my goodness.

[00:02:06] Yeah.

[00:02:07] So we've been around for a while.

[00:02:09] And we started with design development of learning programs to enhance, improve, or change performance.

[00:02:17] We started across industries.

[00:02:19] So we actually got our start in financial services.

[00:02:23] And we, about five or 10 years into our work, we entered into life sciences, started doing a lot of work for pharma, built a medical team.

[00:02:33] And then for the bulk of our history, that's really what we did.

[00:02:37] We did all sorts of programs.

[00:02:39] We did it in Canada, US, global, with some of the most exciting pharma brands out there.

[00:02:46] And it was only in the past five years or so that we transitioned to also enter into marketing.

[00:02:54] And when did you start?

[00:02:56] You obviously haven't been there since the beginning because you would have started when you were like zero.

[00:03:01] When did you start?

[00:03:03] Yeah.

[00:03:04] So I started about 17 years ago now, which is wild to think about.

[00:03:10] I have the unique privilege of saying that I worked at one company, Metrics, for most of my career.

[00:03:17] I did a little bit of medical communications before that.

[00:03:20] I left for a couple of years to do my own tech startup.

[00:03:24] And then I came back.

[00:03:26] But really, Metrics has been the foundation and the full stretch pretty much of my career.

[00:03:32] And 40 years is a long run for an agency.

[00:03:36] 17 years at one spot is a long run.

[00:03:39] And the last 17 years, I know you can't compress 17 years into like a really tight answer.

[00:03:46] But what has that arc been like for that agency as technology has changed pretty dramatically?

[00:03:53] And as you guys have started to get into adjacent and kind of complementary client sets within your client relationships?

[00:04:02] Like that's a big set of changes to weather.

[00:04:05] And it sounds like weather quite well.

[00:04:08] Absolutely.

[00:04:09] So this is something that I love talking to people about when they first joined Metrics.

[00:04:15] And I love telling them about the history because even when I started and certainly before that, when we designed training, we did some cool stuff.

[00:04:24] But we did a lot of binders.

[00:04:26] So there would be huge binders full of training content, whether it was self-study content where you're reading on your own, whether it was workshop facilitation guides.

[00:04:39] And so it was binders.

[00:04:41] And I remember putting the divider tabs into the binders.

[00:04:46] We had to get all of that organized.

[00:04:48] And we would put a nice cover page on it.

[00:04:50] Yeah, slipping the cover into that little plastic.

[00:04:52] Yeah, it was pretty, pretty interesting.

[00:04:55] And then it was called computer-based training before now what we call e-learning or, you know, some would argue it's just learning now in the way that is there really digital marketing now or is it all just marketing?

[00:05:07] So we then transitioned to that.

[00:05:11] But everything had to be custom developed because there were no tools.

[00:05:15] So everything was developed in Flash.

[00:05:17] We would deliver it on CD-ROMs to our clients.

[00:05:21] And that's how it would get distributed.

[00:05:23] And then now, of course, there is such a huge array of tools to help us deliver in so many different ways.

[00:05:34] You know, you can now, I mean, with AI, I mean, that's a whole new game where you can develop a video in a few seconds.

[00:05:40] But just thinking about how far we've come.

[00:05:43] But I always say with all of that change, the core of what we do and the core skills and frameworks around understanding performance, understanding behavior change, understanding your audience is all still very applicable.

[00:05:58] And when we transitioned to marketing, strangely enough, we found that a lot of the skill sets that we use in learning design.

[00:06:08] So exactly that, you know, setting a strategy, understanding your audiences and designing for behavior change were quite similar.

[00:06:16] So the transition was not as challenging as we thought it would be.

[00:06:22] And certainly we had to bring in, you know, associates that could bridge some of the gaps around, you know, more on the strategic side and creative.

[00:06:32] But yeah, it ended up being a lot of the same skill sets, which I think made it an easier transition for us.

[00:06:39] Well, you just set up my next question perfectly.

[00:06:41] Thank you for that.

[00:06:42] I'm going to ask about that transition to marketing.

[00:06:44] But before I do, you know, I want to just reflect back on what you were just saying about kind of all of that change.

[00:06:50] But at the heart of it all, as much as things change, so too, do they stay the same?

[00:06:55] It's really about how do we connect with the humans and, you know, improve the sort of human performance?

[00:07:01] The technology is a lever to help do that.

[00:07:04] And I think that sometimes businesses like yourselves that have such history and pedigree and have gone through significant, almost generational changes in technology can, in a lot of ways, be better positioned than a startup that's very tech heavy.

[00:07:22] Because you know that technology is a lever and sometimes the agencies that are a bit newer or haven't gone through as many cycles.

[00:07:31] Technology is the end and not just, you know, one of the tools.

[00:07:35] And so it's an interesting thing to be able to sort of look back and go, okay, well, as there was Flash and CD-ROMs and those are gone, so too will some of the technology that you're using now or some of the, you know, the tools that you're using now.

[00:07:46] But it's really about how do you stay focused on the end user and behavior change, right?

[00:07:53] That's absolutely bang on.

[00:07:54] And you hear it all the time that the market gets flooded with people that are tech first and they're not really understanding the problems that they're trying to solve.

[00:08:02] They're leading with what can the technology do?

[00:08:05] And we know that usually doesn't go well.

[00:08:08] Yeah.

[00:08:09] Okay.

[00:08:09] So transition to marketing.

[00:08:11] I find that those shifts in service offerings for businesses often happen in one of two ways.

[00:08:18] Either they are purposeful, like there's a bunch of people in a boardroom and, you know, they say, hey, we should start to do some marketing and that happens.

[00:08:25] Or they are accidental almost or serendipitous where you've got a client or a couple of clients who say, hey, hold on a sec.

[00:08:33] You guys have done this thing over here.

[00:08:35] Can you do this thing over here?

[00:08:37] Does your transition to marketing fall into one of those two categories?

[00:08:41] Definitely the latter.

[00:08:42] Okay.

[00:08:43] It was definitely serendipitous.

[00:08:45] And, you know, one would think maybe we should have been more intentional because when I looked at my leadership team, every single one of them had a marketing background.

[00:08:56] Hold on a second.

[00:08:58] But it was accidental in that we just happened to have two clients in parallel, one in Canada and one global, who had said, you know, you've been working on our brands for so long.

[00:09:10] You know them more deeply than we do often.

[00:09:14] And we'd like you to do our marketing work for us.

[00:09:18] And so at first we said, no, we said that's not what we do.

[00:09:25] And we were invited to bid on an RFP.

[00:09:28] We ended up saying, you know, no, it's really not in our wheelhouse, in our sweet spot.

[00:09:34] And we got encouraged to to apply even after the deadline had passed.

[00:09:41] And so we we did and we we won it, which was fantastic.

[00:09:47] And and then the other one wasn't an RFP.

[00:09:50] It was more of a smaller piece of work.

[00:09:53] And we ended up supporting a launch in Canada on the rare disease side.

[00:10:00] And and really, as we as we did it, it was exactly as I said before, that we realized, hey, wait, there's so much overlap in how we approach our work and learning and development.

[00:10:11] And as I said, we also supplemented.

[00:10:13] We got some, you know, great associates with deep brand strategy expertise to help guide us and some on the creative side, too.

[00:10:23] And we we went from there and then got great feedback.

[00:10:26] We ended up for for one client taking over a portfolio of work and continue to to work with them.

[00:10:33] And that really was the story.

[00:10:34] And how good does that feel?

[00:10:36] You know, how good does it feel?

[00:10:37] Yeah.

[00:10:38] And how good does it feel to sort of do the no, no, like that's not what and get that.

[00:10:42] Come on, like, please.

[00:10:44] Yeah, that's that's that's awesome.

[00:10:46] And and I know what a boost it can be for the team or, you know, what a driver of confidence it can be when you go and do something that is new and then realize that you can do it, you know, really, really well.

[00:11:00] And in fact, sometimes doing it new, you come with zero baggage, right?

[00:11:04] You're looking at everything with a really fresh set of eyes.

[00:11:07] And then the team has the sense of like, hey, you know, we can we can do this and maybe we can do this for some clients better than better than others.

[00:11:14] Right.

[00:11:15] Which is really exciting.

[00:11:16] And so so where did you go from there on the marketing side?

[00:11:20] You've now got a really solid case study in your back pocket and you've organically grown to own a portfolio.

[00:11:26] Was it then a hold on a sec now we're going to really lean into this and start to go to market with that offering?

[00:11:33] Or was it still a bit of a slow and steady clients continue to ask and kind of pull you over in that direction?

[00:11:39] Like it feels like that was a pretty key inflection point.

[00:11:41] I would say it was somewhere in the middle.

[00:11:44] So we did say, OK, we want to formalize this as an offering.

[00:11:47] We want to start connecting with our clients and letting them know that we can offer these services and we think we can have value.

[00:11:56] So we definitely did that.

[00:11:58] We started attending more marketing events.

[00:12:01] OPMA were a sponsor.

[00:12:03] I know you did a podcast with Jennifer.

[00:12:06] Yeah.

[00:12:06] And so certainly we did that.

[00:12:09] But I would say that we still right now learning is is the bigger part of our business.

[00:12:16] We're still very much actively promoting that.

[00:12:19] And so I would say it's you know, we certainly didn't throw the baby out with the backwater if that's the right expression.

[00:12:28] But so it's been I would say a formalized transition and a formalized service offering.

[00:12:34] But maybe, you know, we're still in terms of our marketing and business development efforts, very much investing in learning.

[00:12:41] And that certainly because we just have such a deep reputation and so many relationships, that's obviously a little easier to grow.

[00:12:48] So is there kind of like an ideal client or brand or therapeutic area?

[00:12:54] Like where where do you see clients really having the light bulb go off and say, oh, yeah, like we we really need to create more connective tissue between our sales and marketing.

[00:13:05] Like, is there a is there a bit of a common thread with your clients there when you're thinking about those clients?

[00:13:10] Yeah, for sure.

[00:13:11] I think first of all, I think you'd be surprised how many marketers we talk to that say, wow, I really need the training side of what you do.

[00:13:20] Yes.

[00:13:20] Yes.

[00:13:21] And that's an entry point for us to work with them and get to know them, because certainly a friend of mine and creative director said, which I think is so true,

[00:13:31] that marketing and learning should be two sides of the same coin, because it's all about a singular brand experience.

[00:13:39] Right. Whether it's direct to HCP, direct to patient or through your sales force, your medical team, et cetera.

[00:13:49] So so I think it's there's there's obviously great benefit in having them be more closely connected.

[00:13:57] And so in terms of your original question, which is who's our ideal customer, we have done more on the rare disease side.

[00:14:05] And I would say any any disease area where you're going to do a lot more HCP market marketing.

[00:14:17] So because, again, having that connection between the HCP, which is usually a bit more technical in nature, and then also how your sales force and your medical teams, et cetera, engage.

[00:14:29] There's a lot of overlap there.

[00:14:31] So I would say, you know, the brands that tend to be highly, you know, more consumer slash patient focused maybe are a bit more hesitant.

[00:14:41] Yeah.

[00:14:41] But but certainly, you know, where there's a strong HCP marketing component.

[00:14:47] Take note, all rare disease brand managers.

[00:14:52] OK, so let's chat about marketing.

[00:14:54] We talked about sort of like in the middle.

[00:14:56] Let's let's go back over to learning.

[00:14:57] And I'm going to ask learning is a huge category.

[00:15:00] So talk to me about what does learning mean for you guys?

[00:15:04] What what does that look like in terms of your end customers, your service offerings?

[00:15:08] Like, let's talk about learning.

[00:15:10] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:11] It is very broad.

[00:15:13] And I would say that it can sometimes be challenging because it is so broad.

[00:15:18] And we are an agency that has not specialized in sales training, for example, although we do a lot of it.

[00:15:25] We don't specialize in management and leadership training, although we do a lot of it.

[00:15:29] So we really address any performance need in the organization because we are not, I would say, subject matter experts in sales, for example.

[00:15:41] But we've done so much of it over the years.

[00:15:44] We've built quite a lot of expertise.

[00:15:46] But we really our expertise is in designing for learning outcomes, which means designing for, you know, having that effective conversation with the doctor, designing for getting role ready.

[00:15:58] If you're a new rep, for example, as fast as possible.

[00:16:01] So designing in this case, we've been doing a lot of helping marketing teams adopt more digital marketing skills and, you know, move to omni-channel more effectively.

[00:16:12] So it really is about the designing for how people learn.

[00:16:17] That is our expertise.

[00:16:18] And we've done so many different programs, big and small, and strategies to help clients do that.

[00:16:26] I think marketing itself is more complex in a lot of ways than it's ever been with, you know, the promise of hyper-targeting and omni-channel and all of this.

[00:16:35] And yet those clients are also asked to sort of do more, you know, with less, especially on the human capital side of things.

[00:16:43] And so, you know, you've got this scenario where internal marketing teams are facing increased complexity with limited capacity.

[00:16:52] And that, I think, creates some anxiety.

[00:16:55] And some of that anxiety can be relieved with some upskilling and some training and support.

[00:17:00] Are you seeing in some of those areas outside of maybe more sort of traditional rep training that clients are saying, yeah, we really need to get, you know, metrics or somebody in here to help relieve some of that anxiety for our teams and make sure that they're, you know, strong kind of contemporary marketers?

[00:17:18] Absolutely.

[00:17:19] So I think that, first of all, the complexity and the challenge and the do more with less.

[00:17:24] And, you know, you have employees at pharma manufacturers right now are going through lots of restructuring and reorgs.

[00:17:33] You know, you have all of that.

[00:17:34] You have the regulatory environment and the access environment that's complex.

[00:17:37] You have, and then digital transformation is, you know, huge right now with the move to omni-channel.

[00:17:45] And there is so much that is new and it's not even, there's technical knowledge, of course, but the harder thing to shift is mindsets and ways of working, right?

[00:17:59] Yes.

[00:17:59] With omni-channel, you have to now work in a much more agile way.

[00:18:03] You have to really use data in a different way and that you have to do a lot more cross-functional collaboration.

[00:18:09] I think we're seeing that in all functions across the organization.

[00:18:14] So definitely, I think that there is a trend right now around building marketing capability.

[00:18:21] And again, not just on the technical side, but on the mindsets, the ways of working.

[00:18:26] So that's big.

[00:18:27] We're seeing a lot more there.

[00:18:30] But on the flip side, we have the challenge, which you also alluded to, which is that the number one thing,

[00:18:38] and we have spoken to many, many different pharmas, again, global, US, Canada.

[00:18:44] And the number one thing everyone says is a barrier to learning is a lack of time.

[00:18:49] So, and because of all the pressures that you described, there's huge amounts of pressure.

[00:18:54] So you have this need to upskill and to shift behavior.

[00:19:01] And certainly, we've had some great impact with learning programs in the past.

[00:19:07] But then you also have this constant challenge you're battling against, which is people don't have a lot of time.

[00:19:12] And sometimes the amount of effort it takes to build an effective learning experience is vastly underestimated as well.

[00:19:22] Well, and then you get in that weird catch-22 where, but the training will help you be more efficient and more effective.

[00:19:28] We don't have any time to do the training.

[00:19:30] It's like, oh, you know?

[00:19:32] Exactly.

[00:19:32] As I'm listening to you, I'm also thinking about what metrics puts out in the market and how the market is shifting.

[00:19:39] But I'm also thinking about you as like a CEO and a people leader in your organization.

[00:19:46] And some of those things I was describing in the market also are probably the kind of things that you're personally managing,

[00:19:57] which is you have to keep one eye on your leadership team and the team and support the team.

[00:20:02] And you have to keep an eye on the market.

[00:20:04] I think there's always this balance a little bit where you want to provide services that are probably on the bleeding edge of what your clients are looking for.

[00:20:13] They can't be too far out.

[00:20:15] Your clients aren't going to engage you because they haven't recognized that need yet.

[00:20:20] They can't be too far behind because the clients will go to somebody who's offering something that's a bit more contemporary.

[00:20:26] How do you manage all of that as a CEO?

[00:20:28] Like, how are you holding up?

[00:20:31] For sure.

[00:20:32] Well, I think it helps that I love to learn.

[00:20:36] So I think that when we talk in the learning industry about what we call meta skills,

[00:20:42] which are the skills that help you acquire new skills, whether it's self-reflection, whether it is curiosity,

[00:20:50] whether it is, again, the sort of way that you structure your own learning.

[00:20:55] So and Dr. Keith Keating, the chief learning officer at BDO, recently pointed us to Revin's Law,

[00:21:05] which states that for an organization to survive, its rate of learning must be at least equal to the rate of change in its external environment.

[00:21:14] And so and that's very much true.

[00:21:17] So learning, I think, is becoming even more critical than ever.

[00:21:21] And I start I'm you know, I soak up information like a sponge and I'm constantly looking for new ways.

[00:21:29] But again, often not always in a formal learning program.

[00:21:34] And so it's also about this is what we try to do with our clients as well.

[00:21:39] It's about creating that environment and that mindset, chances for peers to share and learn from each other,

[00:21:46] because that's probably one of the most effective ways that we learn, you know, great content, of course,

[00:21:53] but things that you can easily digest in your day to day life.

[00:21:57] So if you need just something quick, you know, I listen to podcasts all the time when I'm traveling, for example.

[00:22:03] So definitely learning a lot, learning from our employees, learning from our customers.

[00:22:10] So I think that's really important, just really listening and keeping those core listening skills active.

[00:22:17] And yeah, there's a lot of definitely a lot of complexity.

[00:22:19] We're definitely thinking about how to, you know, set the course for the next five, 10 years of metrics trajectory right now,

[00:22:28] given there's so much change, especially with AI and everything coming.

[00:22:32] One of the things that comes to mind a little bit on probably both internally and with clients is the added complexity.

[00:22:41] We're getting a theme here of complexity, but the added complexity of the hybrid work environment.

[00:22:46] I am like an old guy to begin with, but I often sound like an old guy when I'm like,

[00:22:50] oh, I remember the days when everybody worked together and you could just, you know,

[00:22:53] you could turn to a peer and say, have you had this experience before?

[00:22:58] Or you would take the elevator with somebody in finance and chat with somebody in the organization

[00:23:05] that you might not otherwise have engaged with and learn a little bit of something

[00:23:09] and create those kind of neural networks inside the organization.

[00:23:14] And I have to imagine it's the same on the client side as well, right?

[00:23:18] You've got brand managers who don't have as much opportunity to just bump into their brand manager colleague, right?

[00:23:27] I mean, I remember when people were in the office and we would have multiple clients in the same building

[00:23:32] and I would go from one office and have a conversation that sounded shockingly like the conversation I had just had in another office.

[00:23:39] And, you know, we were often the ones saying, have you talked to this other brand manager who's trying to do the same thing?

[00:23:43] So, you know, even when everybody was together, everybody was busy and wasn't connecting.

[00:23:49] Not being together kind of adds an extra layer.

[00:23:52] Are you, how are you guys tackling that, you know, both in metrics?

[00:23:56] And also, are you seeing that in your clients as well?

[00:23:59] A little bit of this, a new context with hybrid?

[00:24:02] Even, even probably if you're trying to run in person training sessions, the complexity of getting everybody together in the office for a day.

[00:24:09] Oh yeah, for sure.

[00:24:10] Yeah.

[00:24:10] It's definitely harder to do live.

[00:24:12] And we used to do a lot more in-person meetings with our clients.

[00:24:15] Yeah.

[00:24:15] And now everything is, is virtual.

[00:24:18] So at metrics, what we're doing, I would say that we fairly easily made the transition to remote, which happened during COVID.

[00:24:27] Like many organizations, we're fully remote now.

[00:24:30] We do have co-working spaces that people can go to in an elective way, but it did take a little bit of, I think it's an ongoing process.

[00:24:40] First of all, I think you're never done.

[00:24:41] So, but some of the things that we started, we have the benefit of being an organization that's just under 50 people.

[00:24:49] And so we are smaller, so we can get, we have a few all company chats, for example.

[00:24:58] And I remember one is specifically around sharing great examples of our work and best practices.

[00:25:05] And that one at first, it was crickets when we first started.

[00:25:09] And I remember myself and the leadership team really trying to poke and prod people.

[00:25:13] If they asked us directly, we would share things back through the chat.

[00:25:17] And so, but now it is completely, you know, driven by our employees.

[00:25:24] And there's, I would say daily, many, many exchanges going on.

[00:25:28] And so I think that there's things like that.

[00:25:32] We do, just last night we had, we do once a quarter, something called Check This Out, where we all get together.

[00:25:39] We just share what we're working on because you don't get as much of that happening.

[00:25:42] So I think you have to be a lot more intentional in how you're creating opportunities for people to share.

[00:25:48] We have, you know, virtual coffee chats and things like that.

[00:25:51] We do virtual team events.

[00:25:53] We do live team events as well.

[00:25:54] We do get people together twice a year where we fly everybody in and we have an all company meeting and we have, you know, time to socialize.

[00:26:03] I do find a lot of people at our work end up becoming friends and they seem to socialize outside, which is great.

[00:26:10] Yeah.

[00:26:10] I don't get invited as much, but that's okay.

[00:26:12] No, no.

[00:26:13] That sounds very, very familiar, Jessica.

[00:26:17] I'll try that to take it personally.

[00:26:19] Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:20] So, yeah.

[00:26:22] So I think that that's how we've addressed it for ourselves.

[00:26:26] And really, I think there's always trade-offs, right?

[00:26:29] There's no perfect structure.

[00:26:31] You lose something not being in person every day.

[00:26:33] But I think that when we took a look at it, we gained more being remote, which was, first of all, that we could hire great talent all over the country.

[00:26:42] Absolutely.

[00:26:42] So that was huge for us.

[00:26:45] Another was, you know, cost of living in Toronto.

[00:26:48] We were based in Toronto.

[00:26:50] The cost of living is terribly high.

[00:26:53] And to ask somebody to commute for two hours each way or an hour and a half is also not really fair to them in their personal lives.

[00:27:01] So I think giving that time back that people can, you know, claim more of their lives, I think is really useful.

[00:27:07] So a lot of benefits anyway, all to say that we saw that.

[00:27:11] I think with our clients, I, yeah, I definitely think, first of all, we've heard a lot of frustration, really, from companies that have mandated their employees be back in the office for a few days.

[00:27:27] Because I think what we hear ends up happening a few days a week, I should say.

[00:27:31] What ends up happening is you come in, but the people that you need to collaborate with, they're not in that day.

[00:27:37] Or, you know, there's, it's not applied equally.

[00:27:41] So maybe there's some teams that don't really have to come in and others do.

[00:27:44] So, so I think there's been a challenge with that of making remote work really well.

[00:27:50] And then, you know, you hear a lot of examples of people who go into the office and then they're on, you know, Zoom calls all day.

[00:27:56] They have to find spaces and then booking spaces can be frustrating.

[00:28:00] So, yeah, it, it is tough.

[00:28:03] I don't know.

[00:28:04] I think some of the strategies that I have shared, I think the companies are doing.

[00:28:09] So a lot are using Teams channels, for example, as ways to collaborate.

[00:28:12] But obviously with a much larger, much complex, more complex organization, it gets harder.

[00:28:17] Oh, yeah.

[00:28:18] It just does.

[00:28:19] And it gets, there ends up being so much static in some of those channels that they, they then aren't as effective as they could be otherwise, right?

[00:28:27] Yeah.

[00:28:27] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:28] I've heard with Teams channels, people say, well, they're hard to navigate.

[00:28:31] We've set it up, but we don't really, you know, or that not everybody is sharing.

[00:28:37] Again, it's a lot easier when I, the CEO, can start to encourage people to share on the channel.

[00:28:41] It's harder when it all has to be, you know, self-forming and, and, and all of that.

[00:28:47] So, yeah, definitely a challenge.

[00:28:48] And I would say the other thing that I see all the time, but this is not new to the world of remote is, and it's not a sexy topic, but I think it is so huge is knowledge management.

[00:28:59] So we see all of the time that our clients don't know what exists already in their system, where to find it.

[00:29:09] And, you know, that can cause huge inefficiencies and arguably is a bit harder when you can't just turn your head and ask the person beside you.

[00:29:19] So I, I hope, and I, I wonder if AI is going to help us solve that.

[00:29:25] But we'll have to see.

[00:29:27] Yes.

[00:29:27] And there was always, like, I think in some of those organizations, there's, there's, there's the person who's, you know, either been there for a long time or been in a bunch of different roles.

[00:29:36] And it's, you know, it's, it's like Susie basically becomes like that your knowledge management platform, right?

[00:29:41] Where it's like, you just ask Susie.

[00:29:43] And, and that's a lot easier when you, when you bump into somebody in the hallway.

[00:29:47] The other, the other thing that I've heard, I've, I've also heard very similar grumblings about some of the back to the office stuff.

[00:29:53] The other thing I've heard people say is I just plan on not getting anything done on those days that I'm in the office.

[00:30:01] Because if there's a lot of people in, it's this sort of time and in a good way, I guess, but it's, it's the time when it's like everybody connects and there's so much chatting and, but it's kind of like, it's great.

[00:30:10] But it also means that I have to put all my other work sort of on the side of my desk and then pick it up on those days when I'm not kind of in the office, you know?

[00:30:18] Yes.

[00:30:18] I, I feel that.

[00:30:20] I feel much more focused when I am at home.

[00:30:24] Obviously, if we're having a meeting, I'm pretty focused, but otherwise, yeah, I get so distracted by, by the social element.

[00:30:30] Which again is good.

[00:30:31] Like that's, that's one of the great things.

[00:30:33] And it's also, you know, let's not romanticize the days when we're all in the office.

[00:30:37] Like I remember having to have quarterly kind of show and share meetings because we are all so busy to your point about like, show me the great stuff you've done.

[00:30:46] We needed to be intentional about that even when we were in the office.

[00:30:49] So for sure.

[00:30:50] You mentioned a couple of times sort of global work, US work, Canadian work.

[00:30:54] What's the general split or how do you, how does that stuff all kind of shake out in terms of the work that you guys do?

[00:31:02] Yeah.

[00:31:03] Funnily enough, we're a Canadian agency, but that's actually the smallest segment of work that we do.

[00:31:07] So I would say maybe 20 to 25% Canadian.

[00:31:13] I would say about 50% US and then about 30, 25 to 30 global.

[00:31:21] And do you have teams on the ground in the US or is it all sort of Canadian based servicing US clients?

[00:31:29] Yeah.

[00:31:29] We have traditionally been Canadian based, but we are starting to work with more US based contractors.

[00:31:38] We're looking at hiring in the US as we continue to grow.

[00:31:43] Awesome.

[00:31:44] Well, and I used to joke with my US clients, like it probably takes me as much time to fly from Toronto to Newark as it does for somebody to get from Manhattan through the tunnel.

[00:31:55] Right.

[00:31:55] It's, it's, it's, it's especially if you're working with clients in the sort of New York, New Jersey, like that's a, that's a pretty, if you do need to go, right.

[00:32:03] It's a pretty, it's a pretty easy shot.

[00:32:05] And how did the US, so US has always been a really key part of your business.

[00:32:10] Is that, you know, that happened, you know, a long time ago.

[00:32:13] Like how, how do you guys nurture that very, very different market?

[00:32:19] You know, is it word of mouth?

[00:32:20] Do you have a, do you have a sales team?

[00:32:22] Like how, how does that US market continue to remain so strong for you guys?

[00:32:26] Yeah.

[00:32:27] The incredible thing, but I say incredible, it's probably not very unique to metrics, but we really only built a formal marketing function in the past year.

[00:32:39] And we've just hired our first sales agent.

[00:32:42] I think we've maybe dabbled a little bit over the years, but, but certainly nothing formalized.

[00:32:48] So everything is really, has historically been through relationships, through word of mouth, through referrals, through doing great work.

[00:32:57] And so we, I, you know, I don't remember how we originally got into the US, but I suspect, which is how most of it happened is that we were working with a Canadian client and they got an appointment or we, they referred us into the US or global teams.

[00:33:16] So, and some of the work that we did, you know, had quite high profile at the time.

[00:33:23] So then it got global exposure.

[00:33:26] You know, sometimes we would do work in Canada that we, that the client was so proud of.

[00:33:30] We were so proud of that they showcased it at a global level and that was how, so it's really through, through that, which has been incredible.

[00:33:37] Which is also, it's, it's the best, right?

[00:33:39] That's one of the, that's one of the great things I've found about the life sciences vertical is, is one, there's, there's lots of Canadians for whom a position in the US is, is part of their career trajectory.

[00:33:51] So keeping your Canadian clients happy, you know, gives you a pretty high likelihood that you're going to have a, an advocate that lands in the US at some point.

[00:33:59] And people move organizations a lot.

[00:34:02] And if you can have that happy client base who, one of the first things they do when they go to a new organization is to kind of, you know, wander over to procurement and say, Hey, I've got somebody that I want to get on the list.

[00:34:13] That's, you know, that's golden.

[00:34:15] And there's also on the learning and development side, there's an incredible association called the life sciences trainers and educators network that's based in the US that we have supported and, and been a part of that community for many, many years as well.

[00:34:32] So that's something else we do.

[00:34:34] That's amazing.

[00:34:35] Yeah.

[00:34:35] So as we, you know, wrap up the conversation, I'm going to ask probably another question that that's a bit tough to answer, but, you know, you mentioned AI and you mentioned kind of doing some planning.

[00:34:45] For the next five to 10 years, probably more like five years.

[00:34:49] Cause you know, who knows what's going on in 10 years.

[00:34:51] Yeah.

[00:34:51] How are you kind of as the CEO or with your leadership team, how are you looking to, or are you looking to kind of change the platforms that you use or the makeup of your team or, you know, evolve your service offerings as AI, especially, but as kind of, you know,

[00:35:15] sort of new technologies, new expectations, kind of new relationships evolve in the space.

[00:35:21] And I'm not looking for you to sort of, you know, reveal your kind of five-year blueprint, but yeah.

[00:35:26] What is, what is your thinking as the CEO, as you look to the next five years?

[00:35:31] For sure.

[00:35:32] Yeah.

[00:35:32] Definitely something that is on my mind every day.

[00:35:35] Yeah.

[00:35:35] Yeah.

[00:35:35] So, I mean, I look at AI and I was a big, big fan of it, an early adopter, I would say.

[00:35:43] I look at AI as kind of like a, you know, just in the way we talked about some of the other technological tools coming on and changing the nature of our work.

[00:35:52] So, we no longer need a flash developer to work for six months to build e-learning.

[00:35:58] Similarly, AI just happens to be an incredibly powerful new tool that we have.

[00:36:05] And so, some of the skills around content development where, you know, we may have spent a lot of time in the past, we'll have to do less of.

[00:36:15] But I think our goal at Metrix is to stay focused on, again, our core purpose, which is around facilitating behavior change.

[00:36:23] And that is a lot more than just content.

[00:36:27] It's a lot more than just, you know, even experience design.

[00:36:33] So, we're certainly going to be focusing on, you know, more from a change lens and facilitating change.

[00:36:41] More, you know, project management will still be important strategy.

[00:36:47] In the L&D world, for example, we've been fairly poor at using data and measurement and evaluation.

[00:36:53] But if we have less focus on content development, we have more time to do much more value-added services like that.

[00:37:01] So, that's really the general direction.

[00:37:04] Of course, there'll be twists and turns along the way, I'm sure.

[00:37:08] But certainly, that core mandate to help our clients make behavior change happen is going to stay the same.

[00:37:16] Jessica, I really appreciate this.

[00:37:18] I appreciate you sharing, you know, just your perspective on both where you sit in the organization,

[00:37:23] how you're continuing to remain curious, and how you guys are continuing to evolve for your clients.

[00:37:30] It's a lot, but it feels like you're tackling it with a real sense of positive energy.

[00:37:35] There's a real excitement, I can tell, in your voice.

[00:37:37] So, thank you for sharing.

[00:37:38] Thanks, Neil.

[00:37:39] And thanks so much for having me on.

[00:37:40] I've enjoyed this conversation a lot.

[00:37:44] Thanks for listening.

[00:37:46] This episode wraps up our first season, but don't worry.

[00:37:49] We start season two in two weeks.

[00:37:52] Why 10 episodes in a season, you might ask?

[00:37:55] My answer is, I don't know.

[00:37:57] I just sort of made that up.

[00:37:58] I think it might be like adding something to your to-do list just so you can check it off.

[00:38:02] It just feels really good to wrap up a season.

[00:38:05] Regardless, I'm excited to announce that NFA Health is on board as our season two partner.

[00:38:11] The team at NFA has been amazing to us so far.

[00:38:14] They've been a partner at events, and I'm thrilled for them to be a part of this show.

[00:38:18] A quick note about events before I sign off.

[00:38:21] Our next event, Creativity Now, is on November 26th in Toronto.

[00:38:25] There are just a few tickets left.

[00:38:27] I firmly believe that getting new signals and new information is absolutely critical

[00:38:32] to generating new ideas and staying excited in a challenging creative space.

[00:38:37] Creativity Now is honestly one big healthcare marketing show and tell.

[00:38:42] We've got cases, panels, and partners all sharing their work.

[00:38:47] There is no other place in Canada where you're going to get this kind of deep dive

[00:38:51] into what it takes to create breakthrough work in healthcare.

[00:38:54] You can find out more at pharmabrands.ca.

[00:38:58] See you back here in two weeks, and I hope to see you at the event on November 26th.