Jennifer Zeifman, SVP, National Lead, Health & Wellness, Proof Strategies: On Earning Attention and the Evolving Craft of PR.

[00:00:00] I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, but it's one thing for you to say something about your organization, and it's a whole other thing when it's gone through the critical filter of a report. And that just builds trust exponentially.

[00:00:14] Welcome to the PharmaBrands Podcast. I'm your host, Neil Follett. One thing that has always struck me about healthcare marketing is how people stick with it.

[00:00:24] Sure, as they grow in their careers, folks may lead different brands or work with different agencies, but more so than in a lot of other verticals, people tend to stay within healthcare.

[00:00:35] Today's guest, Jennifer Zeifman, SVP, National Lead, Health and Wellness, at Proof Strategies, embodies that stick-with-itness, but with a twist. Jen has spent almost all of her career in healthcare, and all of it in PR communications. But as an added bonus, she spent almost her entire career at Proof.

[00:00:56] In today's episode, Jen is going to share her views on all of the above. Jen, thank you for joining us today on the PharmaBrands Podcast. Thank you so very much.

[00:01:09] What got you into healthcare and why have you stayed and remained committed to this kind of industry and vertical for so long? So it's funny because I've always sort of liked science, even in high school, and this goes back to the days when you used to need OACs.

[00:01:24] I took a ton of science courses, but I knew I was never going to go into anything like that. I mean, I'm the kind of person who if you're taking your contact lens out, I don't want to look at you.

[00:01:33] So that was not the direction I was going to go into. But if you gave me a clinical trial or something like that to read, I actually would be happy to read it and see what it was all about.

[00:01:42] So I always had an interest sort of in health and science. But, you know, as a young whippersnapper coming out of college, I would have taken anything I could have gotten. And I had an internship at CTV and it was amazing.

[00:01:56] I got to do their fall launch and I got to meet Lloyd Robertson and all the cast at Cannes AM and everything like that. And then it was just a six month job and I had to start looking for something.

[00:02:07] And like everybody else, it was just networking my butt off and trying to see what I could find. And an opportunity popped up at an agency where I could work in the health field. And I jumped at the chance and it really was love at first sight.

[00:02:21] I dove in completely and really embraced it all and haven't turned back. It's just, it's not just interesting to me, which is lucky because you have to be interested in this if you're going to work in the health field.

[00:02:33] But it's also one of those feel good things, right? Like I feel like I'm making a difference in people's lives and it might be the smallest thing, but it is gratifying nonetheless. You've been at proof for 25 years.

[00:02:48] You started out with a very, very different point in your career. What's kept you at the same place for five years? I am honestly so very lucky.

[00:02:57] So I had a friend who was working out at proof and I was working at this other agency and things were always crazy and frenetic and insane. And I called her and she was like, yeah, we have a big launch tomorrow.

[00:03:12] And I'm like, but it's so quiet behind you. I was their madness. And I said, I want to work there. And I just had my eyes set on it. And I was very lucky that I got a job and we were a tiny team at the time.

[00:03:26] I think there were three or four of us. And I both got the opportunity to do so many things because we were such a small team then, but I was surrounded by this office full of people who were so smart.

[00:03:41] I was like the sponge and I just went to every meeting and I got exposure to every person I possibly could to just learn and learn and learn and learn.

[00:03:50] And it was almost overwhelming because I know I'm not a stupid person, but I did not feel like the smartest person in the room most of the time.

[00:04:00] And I thought that was awesome because I knew I was just learning from the best and getting all kinds of opportunities. And it just grew from there. I mean, our team grew and you know, I just had the opportunity to spread my wings.

[00:04:15] And the entire philosophy of the agency has always been very entrepreneurial. So if you had an idea or if you wanted to do something a little bit different, you just had to bring it to someone and say, here's what I'd like to do.

[00:04:29] And here's why. And here's why the business case behind it. And most of the time you got the opportunity to do that.

[00:04:35] So I've been there the whole time because I just keep getting to learn and grow and do more and learn and grow and do more and be exposed to people who are just so smart and good at what they do that they keep me on my toes all the time.

[00:04:50] So that's one of the big reasons. And if you can also imagine through that time, I've been able to work with, I mean, me saying that I've been there for 25 years, I'm not alone in this. So half of my team has been there for a decade or longer.

[00:05:04] That's amazing. So imagine that I get to come to work and work with my best friends almost all the time. I mean, when does that happen? With whom you almost have a shorthand, right?

[00:05:15] I worked with colleagues for a decade or more and so many times we'd be in a room writing on the whiteboard and someone would finish somebody else's sentence or you didn't need to give any background or because you had been through those last 17 pitches together.

[00:05:30] You had learned together, right? Like there's an efficiency in a shorthand that comes with that kind of longevity. So very well said. It's just like this beautiful dance we have together and a safety in that I know they have my back. They have mine.

[00:05:45] There's no question of I'm in this with you. So it just builds this beautiful environment. And I would say that that also is bred by the more senior people in the office of the tone and the values and the space that they create.

[00:06:03] It's not just talk of like, oh, we are supportive of each other and we are open and all those things like it actually is. I mean, I remember when I was offered the job and I said to Bruce Maclone who was the president at the time.

[00:06:16] And I said, OK, I'm going to take the job. And he's like, all right, I'm going to get the contracts ready and and I can leave them at my house if you want to get them now.

[00:06:23] But I'm going to be having dinner with my family between this time and that time. So if you come at that time, don't knock on my door. I was like, that's the greatest thing I've ever heard. Like, that's right.

[00:06:32] He's going to be having dinner with this family then I shouldn't be interrupting him. So I don't know. I just it's it has been a great place to work. And I think one of the other things is that people have always identified others.

[00:06:45] I call it like their special sauce. So what's the unique thing about each person that they can bring to the job and bring to the client that might be a little bit different? And how do we activate that?

[00:06:57] So for my own self, for instance, I really love, you know, either facilitating meetings or being in front of a room and listening to what everything is everyone is saying and connecting those. And I was encouraged to take courses and I ended up getting my facilitation accreditation.

[00:07:16] And now we have the service offering where I either run consensus building exercises or patient advisory board meetings or stakeholder meetings or whatever that might be because I was given the opportunity to learn and hone the skill.

[00:07:30] So, you know, that's an amazing thing for personally me, but others can see that you have this opportunity to.

[00:07:37] It is fundamentally a bunch of people working together to make stuff happen and make decisions and come up with ideas and, you know, have relationships with folks outside the organization. It is fundamentally a human endeavor, you know, a PR firm or a services firm.

[00:07:57] And so supporting the humans and nurturing those relationships and creating a space where those people can be the best version of themselves personally and professionally is in some ways just one of the best business plans you can have. It's so true.

[00:08:12] And things have changed quite substantially, which is I think also part of the amazing thing of being sort of of the older generation.

[00:08:22] I don't for one moment think that I'm a person who knows everything and there's lots of people who are significantly younger than I am who come there who I will lean on them to say, tell me what I need to know here.

[00:08:33] Like I know I have blind spots. So part of the cool thing in that is I can bring my years of experience of knowledge in the space, my learnings from other things.

[00:08:43] But I can also bring together a really vast different group of people to help solve a problem and help figure out how do we move this forward in a new and different manner.

[00:08:54] As much as things stay the same, which is a bunch of humans getting together to do really good work. So too do they change. Can you give me a couple of your greatest hits of how your craft and practice in PR and Clombs has changed,

[00:09:10] giving me a couple of the biggest changes that you've seen in your time there? Yeah, happily. Well, it's interesting. I just had a meeting with a potential client this morning and I was talking to her about this campaign we were doing.

[00:09:23] And I said, you know, it's a really unique situation because 20 years ago I worked with this client and we were making all kinds of announcements. And it was both in the health and government advocacy space. And back then we, I think had 12 news conferences across the country.

[00:09:42] I mean, that's what you did back then. It was almost all about earned media news conferences and getting that media coverage. And those days are so far behind us.

[00:09:52] I mean, if I look at the percentage of work that we as a communications agency do that is like pure earned media. Gosh, I don't know. Maybe it's 15 or 20% of our business now. It's just it is completely different.

[00:10:06] Like media is changing and earned media in and of itself is changing and how you earn attention is completely different. I mean, of course there are times where you put out your press release and you've got your spokespeople. You know, there's all of that too.

[00:10:20] But it has fundamentally changed in how you earn attention to a place that, you know, we have to think about how do you build a campaign?

[00:10:30] Not just a piece of news, but how do you build a campaign that's going to earn attention and even attention in and of itself has changed? Right. It's fragmented and it's shorter. So how do you do that in a space that just fundamentally is constantly changing too?

[00:10:48] I was thinking as you were speaking of, I don't know if it was last year or the year before. I did a presentation on some highlights from the Cannes Health Lions and some of the sort of most globally recognized creative work.

[00:11:00] And I would say Jennifer, probably half or more of that work is work that would fall into the category of PR. Really amazing creative breakthrough campaigns that educated on a cause or a therapeutic area.

[00:11:18] And it was striking to me that in the olden days, it was like an East Coast, West Coast rap battle, right? Like, you know, there were like PR and marketing and they're these two things that are over there. And I think the lines are blurrier now.

[00:11:31] And in a lot of ways, like there's probably stuff on either ends of the spectrum, but the middle is shared space in a lot of ways. It is the lines are completely blurred as a person who works in an agency.

[00:11:43] I mean, I would say, you know, maybe eight years ago, it was even more uncomfortable. It felt almost like, you know, lion's den that the client would come out and say, OK, here's the opportunity. Hey agencies, go after it. Right.

[00:12:01] And everyone was fighting over the piece of pie and the piece of pie. And I'm not saying that that's gone. And I think some clients still do struggle with managing or figuring out how to bring together that integrated marketing team.

[00:12:16] And the lines are still pretty blurred, but I think where what is driving it now is being able to find a partnership between a client and an agency where people are really. Embedded in the business. They understand the business.

[00:12:32] They understand your target and then moving it forward from there. It's not, you know, sometimes it's backwards of, all right, here's, you know, gone are the days hopefully where it's like, here's a campaign. OK, Jennifer, go PR it.

[00:12:46] I mean, there's nothing that makes my skin crawl more than someone telling me to PR something.

[00:12:54] But where I think things are moving to or have been moving toward is figuring out like who is the partner who can best understand the business and the audience and connecting with them. And that's where the business is going.

[00:13:09] Again, coming from the marketing side, I've had those experiences where it's like, you know, here's an opportunity go and everybody's kind of scrambling and you're, you know, you feel like you're sort of fighting over the table scraps a little bit.

[00:13:22] And there's situations where the agencies are just wildly segregated. There's kind of, there's a PR agency over here and marketing agent over here and almost never even get the same room together for clients that are listening to the show.

[00:13:37] What advice do you have in for a client that's got a PR agency and a marketing agency like lots do?

[00:13:43] What's the advice that you give to get the most out of both of those partners and have everybody play together in a way that sort of, you know, one plus one equals three? Yeah. It's a challenge.

[00:13:56] And I don't know if any agency has or any client rather has figured it out perfectly. But the times that I see it working, the best is when they start everyone off on the same playing field, right?

[00:14:08] Briefing everyone together, briefing everyone together, sharing the same information and then collectively working together, not saying, and now everybody go apart. Plan. Mash your plans all together and come present them to us. It's ideating together still. It's aligning on what are we all trying to do?

[00:14:31] What are we all trying to say? And then really bringing that expertise from each group together to align on what is the either creative idea or what is the CRM approach or what is the HCP approach because they all need to be connected.

[00:14:48] I mean, I would say the other challenge is that everybody is moving a mile a minute. Planning that should take four weeks is being done in 10 days.

[00:14:59] So you're not getting anyone's best work and often what's happening because of that is everybody, as we said, was going off and then trying to mash plans together in the end and they don't look integrated because they're not. Yeah.

[00:15:14] And that work is being done in an environment that is radically changing with clients who are often significantly resource constrained. And I don't just mean that financially, but from a time standpoint, they're asked to be more with less have more to juggle. So yes, it is complex.

[00:15:35] Their human resource challenges are real. Yeah. I don't know how they get through their days all the time. And another observation that I have is that the reporting that is required on the client side constantly doesn't let them actually work on the business. They're just forever reporting, reporting.

[00:15:55] You know, I think there was a big change, you know, big data. It was everything and everyone was talking about it. And it almost has become a bit of a barrier in some times because it's just constantly, constantly, constantly number crunching reporting, reporting report.

[00:16:11] But I don't know if that is then applied or by the time they've done that other things are happening already. I mean, I was just at a meeting last week and they were saying, OK, the sales are doing great and we're, you know, exceeding expectations.

[00:16:25] And I'm like, that's fantastic. Why? What's working? Oh, right. I'm like, should we be doing more of the same? But there's a lot of things happening. So what do we double down on?

[00:16:38] And so it's a problem that they all it's almost like paralysis because there's so much to be looking at. Yeah, it's the classic. I know that 50% of my marketing is working. I just don't know which 50%. Exactly.

[00:16:51] I used to joke sometimes, you know, big data doesn't just mean longer reports. It's what is what is meaningful and where do you going to get your insights out of? Yeah.

[00:17:01] So if you think about the agency now and you go back five years, what what capabilities does the agency have now that they didn't have five years ago? And if you look five years ahead, what capabilities do you think you'll need in five years?

[00:17:17] And if that timeframe is too long, let's say like three years back and three years forward. Sure. I would say that, you know, five years ago, we really doubled down on audience insights and having that at the core of everything that we're doing,

[00:17:37] like stopping and challenging our clients when they're giving us briefs or when they're talking about business and really challenging them to say, let's focus it on this audience and what they need and why.

[00:17:49] And looking at the generational differences, there's lots of times where our clients would even come to us and say, okay, I want to be in the global mail or I want to be on TikTok and we're like, okay, maybe. Like, let's back it up a little.

[00:18:03] Really, I would say this audience first strategy led approach and ingraining that across the agency to stop before we do anything and making sure that we get that down. That's been a big shift.

[00:18:20] And then even within the capabilities of our agency itself and being able to put together like independent completely integrated plans.

[00:18:29] I think like the quality of the work and the depth of the work that we have moved into in the last five years has changed substantially across the board,

[00:18:40] like just in the type of creative that we're doing and our paid approaches and thought leadership and even narrative building, like just making sure that the client knows, like, what is the story we're telling here? We'll be right back after this message from Paper Curve.

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[00:19:47] And is that skills building with people who've been there for a long time or when you look around and you say, okay, we've audience insight and narrative building and creative. We've really kind of changed our capability set there.

[00:20:00] And part of that is because we've got Frank and Jim and Susan and Naveed and their folks who we've brought in who have really deep expertise. Is it a combination of new roles plus upskilling?

[00:20:16] Is it a philosophical shift in terms of how you do your work and everybody's kind of adapted to that new philosophy? Like what is the makeup that allows you to be able to deliver on those capabilities,

[00:20:26] which is going to be a bit of a lead into that when you look three years out. Is that also going to entail new roles or can the existing team continue to evolve and stretch? So my answer to the first question is it's a combination.

[00:20:43] So it is a skill set to be able to identify the audience, figure out what is going to be the emotional connection to those people. Where are they? What do we need to do to motivate them? Like that is a skill set in and of itself.

[00:20:55] So bringing in the folks who could do that. But then you have all the folks on the account side of the business who are the ones who are in front of the client and at the briefs and what have you,

[00:21:05] who need to understand what are the questions we need to ask or when an opportunity comes in. Who do I need to bring in to help unlock or figure out what we need to do here?

[00:21:18] Or when you're seeing a client brief being able to challenge it and say, I don't think we've gone deep enough here. Like I don't think we have a true insight.

[00:21:28] I mean Neil, I imagine it's happened to you dozens of times where you'll have a presentation like in our big insight is, this and you're looking at it and you're saying, that's not an insight.

[00:21:38] With impunity I can answer that question and say yes, that happened a lot because I'm not in marketing anymore and I don't know the agency. And so it's easier to say, because in the past all of my clients would be going, hey, is he talking about me?

[00:21:50] But yes, there's lots of those situations where you think to yourself, okay, we're not quite... That's not necessarily a foundation upon which we can build a very big house. Correct, exactly.

[00:22:05] So the training comes in and having the folks who are in front of the client understand like what is a true insight? How much deeper do we need to dig? Who do I need to bring in when?

[00:22:17] So if they can understand it and then they can connect to the folks who can actually make it better,

[00:22:23] that was a fundamental shift and one that I think, at least at proof, that we've got down pretty solid to make sure that we're doing the best work we can. And so being solid now, I feel like the pace of change just in general has grown exponentially.

[00:22:41] AI obviously being a factor of that but just a wildly splendid media landscape and informed and misinformed patients and consumers. And it's a very, very different landscape not even to talk about the whole HCP side of things.

[00:22:56] Looking forward, where do you see things going in the next few years? What does that mean for maybe proof but also just sort of PR in general? It's a big question and a hard one to answer for sure.

[00:23:11] I don't go late when I ask you to pull out the crystal ball. I don't but if I were to look into the crystal ball, which is one of the main things I train people when I'm doing media training and people say,

[00:23:24] you know, tell me what's going to happen in the future. The answer is always, I'm not a fortune teller. I don't have a crystal ball to tell you what the future is going to hold.

[00:23:31] So I preface this by saying, I don't know what the future is going to hold. But if I was to look out into the future, I think the point that you made earlier about having to do more with less and the challenges that lots of people,

[00:23:46] the human resource challenges that people have. I think it's a matter of being the smartest and getting the biggest bang for your buck with what you're doing.

[00:23:59] So how are you putting together a campaign that can have the most tentacles to go out the farthest and the deepest that can have the biggest impact?

[00:24:11] So how can you have a core idea that can be supported by, you know, all the different channels that can live on its own, that can eat and breathe, that can grow within itself and will give that you can measure to give the client the biggest ROI.

[00:24:28] Because for them to keep growing, I feel like that is such a big focus right now. And to do that often it takes, you know, sometimes I want to say bravery from a client to say yes,

[00:24:43] because it's easy to say yes to things that have been done before. But as you think about new or innovative or creative often that also means there's some anxiety, right at the brand level. And with health brands for sure, there's only so much risk tolerance, right?

[00:25:05] And so how do you help clients along that kind of comfort spectrum as you're saying, like I know the 2020 X plan had this, but that's not going to be great for this year and we need to do that.

[00:25:20] Like that I think especially, you know, as pure and marketing get closer together as channels continue to evolve, as new channels exist that just everybody's, you know, it's just new for everybody, including regulatory and management.

[00:25:34] It feels like getting to a yes even on a really solid campaign can be sometimes challenging. You're absolutely right about that. And I just had this conversation earlier this week about, I don't know, I think we landed on the word bold as opposed to brave, but you're right.

[00:25:52] There's a leap of faith that is in there. And I think there is a spectrum of organizations, companies out there certainly in pharma where they either need an example of another company who has done this before or something similar to this before.

[00:26:09] Show me how this has been done before to get approval to do it. And then at the other end, you have the trailblazers who are much more comfortable working in that gray space and are much more comfortable pushing the envelope, which of course is more fun for us.

[00:26:27] But really what it is, because I would say that most pharma companies are conservative or more conservative and depending on where their head offices are, give them more or less leeway.

[00:26:39] It's really giving them the proof points, the comfort, the out almost to show them why what they're doing is bold, but is also not just going to work, but won't get them in trouble. I mean, it's all risk aversion. Yeah.

[00:26:57] And I think if it can be a marriage of strategic and bold and not bold for bold sake that helps obviously, right? Absolutely. I also like how you integrated proof points in there.

[00:27:08] So as we look forward, the other side of AI, which is the risk and the brand risk and the reputational risk that comes with things that we're starting to see already in other industries. There was a very senior ad exec that there was a deep fake.

[00:27:25] They deep faked his voice and deep faked a meeting. And you wouldn't think that an executive of an advertising firm would be high on the list of who would be the obvious target of a deep fake.

[00:27:38] But I think that the barriers to bad actors have been reduced, the velocity with which misinformation can be produced and disseminated has increased exponentially.

[00:27:50] Where do you see both, I guess, the offense and the defense part coming in when it comes to AI as an AI generated content or misinformation as it pertains to the brands that you work with or health care in general? Yeah. So I mean, AI is happening, right?

[00:28:08] There's no stopping that. It's just going to keep going. And in truth, there's so much positive that can come out of it from a healthcare perspective for sure.

[00:28:16] In choosing what, you know, drugs to double down on where the research should go in electronic health records, in patient management. You know, there's a million ways that AI is being leveraged. It's now bleeding into of course communications and marketing.

[00:28:37] I mean, I have a client who is intentionally making AI driven ads because they work in the rare disease space and they're trying to connect with a certain target audience. They can't find a patient who would be right to do this ad or this piece of content.

[00:28:56] And so they've intentionally created an AI ad. So, you know, it's all happening and all that is great. But I think just at the same time, companies need to be eyes wide open of the risks that can come with it.

[00:29:12] And I think that the organizations who actually have risk mitigation plans are few and far between. And I think that it's really important that people just prepare for this in a few ways.

[00:29:26] I think that there's a lot of effort that needs to be put in putting money in the bank, kind of getting ahead of it. Making sure that you have partners, making sure that you have trust in your organization and in your brand.

[00:29:40] Because if and when the virtual poop hits the fan, you need to have at least as much trust in your organization as you can beforehand. And then you just need to think about trust itself and how do you leverage that?

[00:29:58] How do you build it? How do you rebuild it if a problem does arise? And, you know, there are definite steps that can be taken and there are definitely things that can be done to make sure that an organization can recover if something goes sideways.

[00:30:15] Is there an opportunity in there for traditional media? I still think that in what they're calling, you know, the post-truth era, there is some gravitas that comes with this was in the globe or this was in the times or this was on CTV.

[00:30:35] And it feels like there's a potential counterbalance there when you've got a great PR partner who can leverage more traditional media or more established media partners to offset or to address those issues if they come up.

[00:30:51] You're 100% right. I mean, without real news, without journalists, we have no balance.

[00:30:57] And they're trusted by the public. Certainly Canadians trust them, support them, right? Like they know that that's credible and they have, you know, the same journalists or, you know, people that they go to for their news that they trust.

[00:31:14] So it is invaluable when it comes to building trust or rebuilding trust. You know, I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, but it's one thing for you to say something about your organization.

[00:31:26] It's a whole other thing when it's gone through the critical filter of a report. And that just builds trust exponentially in being able to get that kind of coverage.

[00:31:36] So that's one of the preparation things is make sure that you have strong media contacts. Make sure you support journalists and advertise with them because we can't like, you know, it's a shrinking, shrinking, shrinking group of people.

[00:31:52] So having journalists around, I think is incredibly important and incredibly powerful when it comes to managing trust, when it comes to turning a narrative around.

[00:32:04] And I guess the same goes for QPNL leaders and HCPs who are in many cases that trusted voices within a therapeutic area or a region or an institution that those trusted voices are also the counterbalance.

[00:32:21] Absolutely. So that goes back to the whole putting trust in the bank again. So having great allies, be it HCPs or stakeholders or government, whomever it is, you just need to keep it's like networking its relationship building, you need to have great allies so you can activate them if need be.

[00:32:41] And again, those are all third party. If those people are speaking on your behalf, they are trusted by people who are listening and can deliver a message in a better manner than you can on your own.

[00:32:54] Yeah, it is an increasingly complex world. I think it's it's it's it's incredibly important for brands to have partners that they can trust and partners that they're comfortable having uncomfortable conversations with.

[00:33:13] And some of those uncomfortable conversations are, I kind of don't know what to do. Right. I think that giving you know giving clients permission to be vulnerable is a really important part of building those relationships and helping to get to a place where it's all on the table a little bit right.

[00:33:33] Absolutely. And I think it kind of goes back to how much and this is the challenge right with everything that's going on in in any organization, it's very easy to put something like trust building to the side.

[00:33:47] And people just think it happens right we're doing good work people must trust us but it's actually not the case. And so really you need to think about all the elements of trust that you need to build.

[00:33:58] Right like we have this model we that is, you know it's out there ready I'm not inventing anything here but it's called the ABI model, which is ability, benevolence and integrity.

[00:34:10] So how do you make sure that you are demonstrating your ability, which is you know your competency to do something well or effectively. How do you demonstrate your benevolence. So, you know, like going above and beyond of what is asked for you kindness things like that.

[00:34:25] And how do you reinforce your integrity, like doing the right thing, ethical behavior. And so this is something that has to be done over and over again, so that you have this foundation of trust.

[00:34:39] And if that's broken, then you have a great place to lean back on and rebuild from that if you haven't got you know like it's like a stool you need all three of these to be able to build trust.

[00:34:50] So if you haven't got that foundation and you're not really putting effort into maintaining it, it can be very problematic. Well, I feel like that is a good place to end with a big concept to think about.

[00:35:06] And I will say that your ability as a guest today has been fantastic. I really enjoyed the conversation. We could go on forever because my where has the industry been and where is the industry going are shows in and of themselves.

[00:35:19] But I really appreciate your time Jennifer. Thank you. Thank you so very much. It's been a lot of fun. Thanks for listening. And for those of you who've listened before, you know each episode ends with me asking you to subscribe.

[00:35:33] But this time it's going to be different. This time I'm asking her to take three seconds and rate the show. Come on, throw a few stars our way will you? Up next we have an episode that features Jeffrey Kent, CEO of Paper Curve.

[00:35:46] Yes, that paper curve our season one partner. Give it a listen on August 14th and until then enjoy the middle of summer everyone.