Inspiring and nurturing creativity within your teams and accounts is a key mandate for any Chief Creative Officer. In this episode Marty talks candidly about the challenges, and successes, of leading creative teams in a highly regulated industry. Marty has also recently returned from Cannes and shares his stories from the south of France.
This episode was brought to you, in part, by Metrix. Metrix helps clients make behaviour change happen. We appreciate their support and encourage you to learn more at metrixgroup.com.
Our producer is Darryl Webster with Chess Originals.
[00:00:00] I think one of the things that I'm noticing is the ambition from the client to do amazing work.
[00:00:07] That's one change and that's one change in attitude.
[00:00:09] It's more of a change in attitude than a change in output.
[00:00:12] Hey everybody, it is your friendly podcast host Neil welcoming you to episode seven of The PharmaBrands Podcast.
[00:00:19] I can't believe that we're seven episodes in. Time flies when you're having really interesting conversations with amazing people.
[00:00:25] Speaking of conversations, today's conversation with Marty is timely for a few reasons.
[00:00:30] One, he's just returned from the south of France after judging the Cannes Health Lions.
[00:00:35] It's a tough job but somebody has to do it.
[00:00:37] Marty is going to share some of those stories and insights with us later in the episode.
[00:00:41] But a little closer to home, I've been working on the next PharmaBrands conference.
[00:00:46] It's a follow-up from our AI event in June.
[00:00:49] And this one is all about creativity and healthcare marketing.
[00:00:53] Creativity now is the name of the event.
[00:00:55] It's maybe not the most creative title I've ever come up with.
[00:00:58] And we're hosting November 26th here in Toronto.
[00:01:01] This is a you heard it here first situation as we're not even launching this event until next week.
[00:01:06] But I'm frankly too excited about it to keep it a secret any longer.
[00:01:10] I can tell you that we've got some unbelievable speakers and unique content.
[00:01:14] We're going to be diving deep into DTC work with No Fixed Address and Novo Nordisk.
[00:01:18] We're going to be hearing from leaders at Janssen and Gilderma and many more.
[00:01:21] We're going to get focused on targeting and media buying with colour.
[00:01:25] And speaking of awards, we have judges from the Canadian Marketing Association on stage
[00:01:30] to highlight winning work from this year's healthcare category.
[00:01:34] Check out pharmabrands.ca next week for more and be prepared for me to annoy you
[00:01:38] with many, many LinkedIn posts.
[00:01:41] Okay enough about that event.
[00:01:43] Let's get back to this main event in my conversation with Marty.
[00:01:49] Marty thanks for joining us today.
[00:01:51] Thank you. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:52] I'm excited about this conversation for a whole bunch of reasons.
[00:01:56] One, we've chatted a few times.
[00:01:57] I've always enjoyed our conversations.
[00:01:59] Two, you're a CCO and creative in the healthcare category is always an interesting conversation.
[00:02:06] And you've just fairly recently returned from France as a judge at Cannes.
[00:02:13] So I'm interested in getting a little bit of behind the scenes of what that was all about.
[00:02:17] So maybe let's start just for a moment with tech.
[00:02:21] So you're CCO at Tank Worldwide and I should have timed this a little bit differently
[00:02:25] because you are a few months away from your 10 year anniversary.
[00:02:29] So I feel like you're in a pretty good position to give me the kind of elevator pitch on tank.
[00:02:35] Talk to me a little bit about tank as an agency and then we'll use that as a jumping off point.
[00:02:39] Yeah, totally.
[00:02:40] So thanks been around for a while right?
[00:02:42] It's already as an independent agency.
[00:02:44] And I think at the beginning of it, they were mostly focused on consumer advertising.
[00:02:49] And then they started with a small portion of the agency that was awarded to a little bit more of the health
[00:02:55] and the pharma advertising and that grew exponentially.
[00:02:59] So that has shifted a little bit of being a bigger healthcare agency right now than consumer.
[00:03:04] What's been interesting about how Tank operates is that when I came into Tank
[00:03:09] like close to 10 years ago, like you mentioned,
[00:03:10] it was a lot heavier on the consumer side than it was on the health side
[00:03:14] but the philosophy of using creatives from the consumer side really benefited the health side tremendously.
[00:03:23] The approach was mostly about how can we solve this problem creatively
[00:03:28] not this is a pharma issue or this is a health issue
[00:03:31] but this needs a solution that needs to be solved with creativity.
[00:03:36] So mixing those two worlds together can only generate a pretty magical creative space
[00:03:43] to be a little bit more different.
[00:03:45] So fast forward a few years now we're part of a network with WPP
[00:03:51] it has allowed us to really expand globally in a way that was a little bit more unexpected
[00:03:57] so now we have accounts and not only Canadian but also global accounts, US accounts
[00:04:02] in the healthcare space and the pharma space and some smaller consumer brands as well.
[00:04:08] So maybe give a bit of perspective on what does that shift looking like in terms of
[00:04:13] Canadian versus global business is the global business coming in
[00:04:17] sort of through WPP intros or is that kind of a tank led expansion?
[00:04:22] Like give a bit of a sense because frankly sometimes just jumping the provincial borders is tough
[00:04:27] but jumping the international borders to start to pick up US work and global work
[00:04:32] is that's a really big milestone I think for agencies.
[00:04:37] You're right and I think the expansion and the ability to work globally
[00:04:41] comes a little bit from both sides from WPP of course as a network
[00:04:45] and we're also part of Grey so that helps tremendously to expand their wins
[00:04:50] a little bit more globally.
[00:04:53] But the national market and I would say the Canadian market
[00:04:57] not only Quebec especially in healthcare
[00:04:59] it's mostly Canadian than Quebec specific
[00:05:02] is something that we continue to be in and it's something that has always been
[00:05:07] a big part of who we are a tank.
[00:05:10] So to be able to build on that into brands that also exist globally
[00:05:14] it kind of like our credentials in Canada facilitated the expansion
[00:05:19] into global accounts as well.
[00:05:20] So if I give you an example that we have certain brands for
[00:05:25] let's say Pfizer that are Canadian and that facilitated conversations
[00:05:29] to be able to have with global brands as well.
[00:05:32] So that helped tremendously our credentials helped a lot
[00:05:36] the way we worked helped a lot when we started working with Grey
[00:05:40] we had a bit of a borderless model that was pretty fluid
[00:05:44] and that helped us get a little bit more recognition in the US and globally as well.
[00:05:49] So I would say that you know although it was started in Quebec
[00:05:54] we always had big eyes right for the rest of the world
[00:05:57] the world is big it's a big world out there.
[00:06:00] So to be able to think bigger than local
[00:06:03] is something that has benefited and to behave that way as well
[00:06:06] has helped tremendously.
[00:06:08] Well it's a big world out there
[00:06:10] and there are also some pretty big budgets in the US too.
[00:06:15] That doesn't hurt.
[00:06:17] How do you guys just as a creative team
[00:06:20] how are you able to take your consumer experiences
[00:06:24] take your global experiences your US experiences
[00:06:26] and bring those to bear on Canadian clients?
[00:06:31] Yeah I think the you know when you talk about regulations
[00:06:36] especially in Canada they're pretty tight
[00:06:39] they're pretty tough and they're not going away.
[00:06:42] So for us is to be able to know
[00:06:45] to know them very well to be able to navigate them
[00:06:48] and I think one of the most important things
[00:06:51] that we have managed to do successfully
[00:06:55] is to find really good partners on the client side
[00:06:59] that will actually help us navigate that
[00:07:02] through in their own internal regulatory systems
[00:07:05] right like internal and externals as well.
[00:07:09] So creative for us is not only letting the output
[00:07:12] but it's you know it's the whole process of it right
[00:07:15] how are you going to approach this problem
[00:07:17] how are we going to solve it
[00:07:18] how are we going to navigate regulations through this
[00:07:21] how soon are we going to involve everyone who has
[00:07:24] a decision-making power into this conversation
[00:07:27] to be able to do that successful
[00:07:29] how are we going to find partners
[00:07:30] how are we going to find people that are going to
[00:07:33] walk with us through all of this
[00:07:35] and we're going to walk with them through all of this as well.
[00:07:38] So it's a long lengthy process
[00:07:41] I mean you know like to do a project in pharma
[00:07:45] takes a long time
[00:07:46] it takes a long time to
[00:07:47] the back and forth we hear about
[00:07:50] ten nos before we hear one yes
[00:07:53] but that yes just allows you to continue to build
[00:07:56] for another yes.
[00:07:57] Yeah.
[00:07:58] There's a lot it's a lot of
[00:08:01] how we think about these
[00:08:04] I don't want to say rejections
[00:08:06] but that's kind of like you feel for every creative
[00:08:08] when they say
[00:08:09] yeah yeah yeah
[00:08:10] that's coming from a very personal spot
[00:08:12] of being a creative
[00:08:13] Yeah yeah exactly you know but
[00:08:14] you need to be able to take them
[00:08:17] and to say okay well that means that I can't push this way
[00:08:20] but I got to push this other way
[00:08:21] so there's a relentless approach
[00:08:24] to be able to deliver a great creative product
[00:08:26] that we cannot lose
[00:08:28] because of the regulations by viewers that exist there
[00:08:31] we can do that alone creatively
[00:08:33] it's impossible to do that alone
[00:08:35] creatively we can do it in a silo
[00:08:36] so you need your partners within the agency
[00:08:38] in the accounts team in the strategy team
[00:08:40] and also on the client side to be able to navigate all of this
[00:08:44] so it's a lot of effort
[00:08:45] it's definitely a lot of effort but it's always
[00:08:47] it's always paid off
[00:08:48] isn't it transformative
[00:08:50] how different it is
[00:08:52] when you're working with a client partner
[00:08:55] who's curious
[00:08:57] and open
[00:08:59] and gives a little bit of runway
[00:09:01] and is candid
[00:09:03] about their hopes
[00:09:05] and dreams and their own eight you know
[00:09:06] organizational limitations and like
[00:09:08] it changes the context
[00:09:10] I think
[00:09:11] more dramatically than clients know
[00:09:14] and I think it's a really hard
[00:09:16] it's a hard thing to do
[00:09:18] I've never been on the client side
[00:09:19] I've been agency my entire career
[00:09:21] but it takes a lot of courage
[00:09:23] I think to be
[00:09:25] a good client partner
[00:09:27] because it means that you know the client needs to say on occasion
[00:09:30] I don't know
[00:09:31] or they might need to go and advocate
[00:09:33] up the food chain for something that
[00:09:35] they're really passionate about but maybe makes
[00:09:37] their boss anxious or
[00:09:39] it's such an interesting thing to see the difference
[00:09:42] between an account
[00:09:43] where there's that real strong trust and partnership
[00:09:46] and an account that
[00:09:47] that maybe just doesn't have that same
[00:09:49] level of strength
[00:09:51] could be an account you've had for years but it's just
[00:09:53] it doesn't have that same kind of dynamic
[00:09:55] from the creative side
[00:09:57] is it as empowering
[00:09:59] as it feels
[00:10:00] to me as you know when I was an agency owner
[00:10:05] you know you actually said one word there that
[00:10:07] I think it's key right that word courage
[00:10:09] on the client side
[00:10:11] once you find a client that has
[00:10:13] the courage to be wrong
[00:10:16] it's
[00:10:18] black and white
[00:10:19] day and night it's a complete change
[00:10:21] because then you suddenly
[00:10:23] are working towards
[00:10:24] the same goal
[00:10:26] you know honestly I've never met a client that doesn't want to do the best piece of work ever
[00:10:32] especially in healthcare
[00:10:33] like where all of my
[00:10:35] client experience is that they really wanted to
[00:10:37] yes it's a business but they want to do
[00:10:40] meaning meaningful work
[00:10:41] correct but and then
[00:10:43] you know in order to be able to
[00:10:46] get that courage out of the client
[00:10:48] they also need the trust that you know
[00:10:49] how to navigate this stuff that you know the science
[00:10:52] that you know the boxes that need to be checked
[00:10:53] before you start pushing
[00:10:54] you can't start pushing before making sure
[00:10:57] that you have a solid foundation
[00:10:58] and the knowledge to know
[00:11:00] even know where to push right
[00:11:01] that sometimes takes time right
[00:11:03] and when you're able to
[00:11:06] really cement
[00:11:07] that relationship of trust like beautiful things happen
[00:11:11] not that it makes it any easier
[00:11:13] but really like
[00:11:15] like you both
[00:11:16] you and the client and us as creative
[00:11:18] with the client have the same
[00:11:20] goal that that goalpost
[00:11:22] which is like to do this like
[00:11:24] most amazing work that gets
[00:11:26] the agency recognized
[00:11:27] as much as the client as well
[00:11:30] yeah so that's super important
[00:11:32] so when you
[00:11:34] when you ask it that's empowering
[00:11:36] that is like
[00:11:37] probably one of the best feelings in the world
[00:11:39] to be able to take a client
[00:11:41] that was courageous enough
[00:11:44] to say I want to do this great work
[00:11:46] you know and I'm not really sure
[00:11:47] I'm going to be able to do it with all these regulations
[00:11:50] and have those type of what it's conversations
[00:11:51] right off the bat
[00:11:53] then you're able to shape something absolutely magnificent
[00:11:56] and you know we are
[00:11:58] like
[00:11:59] my goal is to always challenge the client
[00:12:02] you know
[00:12:03] a lot of people most people think that they know
[00:12:06] what they want but then when you see something
[00:12:08] that you didn't have in mind it's like
[00:12:09] can you trigger that conversation
[00:12:11] to elevate the work and then that baseline
[00:12:14] of what you were delivering
[00:12:15] for the work gets a little bit higher
[00:12:18] all the time
[00:12:19] but in order to do that
[00:12:22] you need to do it
[00:12:24] in a way that is
[00:12:26] that comes with the background
[00:12:28] that comes with the knowledge
[00:12:30] that comes with
[00:12:31] the right points to push
[00:12:33] so that it's well received
[00:12:35] I think that goes back to
[00:12:37] when we're talking about the consumer and health mix
[00:12:40] you know I've seen a lot of
[00:12:42] consumer agencies
[00:12:44] pick up
[00:12:45] really large
[00:12:47] healthcare clients
[00:12:48] and not do well
[00:12:50] and I think what ends up happening sometimes is
[00:12:52] those healthcare brands
[00:12:54] especially if they've got a big budget
[00:12:56] or they want to go DTC
[00:12:57] they think well we need to go outside of the healthcare space
[00:13:00] and we need to pick an agency
[00:13:02] that is a
[00:13:03] non-traditional choice
[00:13:05] so that we can be creative
[00:13:07] and the stumbling blocks happen
[00:13:09] because they may be a very
[00:13:12] creative agency
[00:13:13] but they don't know what the rules of the game are
[00:13:15] and so it's a little bit like
[00:13:17] you get a star basketball player
[00:13:19] who just grabs the ball and runs down the court
[00:13:21] they're going to get a whistle
[00:13:23] and I think that
[00:13:25] ability to come from
[00:13:27] a place of
[00:13:28] decades of understanding
[00:13:32] what it takes to be successful in that
[00:13:33] regulatory environment
[00:13:35] plus
[00:13:37] the desire and the creativity to push
[00:13:39] that to me is where clients
[00:13:41] also start to get comfortable
[00:13:42] where they're not the ones saying
[00:13:45] oh but you can't even do this
[00:13:47] if they understand that the agency partner
[00:13:49] that's across the table
[00:13:51] is as or sometimes even more aware
[00:13:53] of the rules of the game
[00:13:55] that helps I think build that trust
[00:13:57] that allows everybody
[00:13:58] to have a jumping off point
[00:14:00] absolutely and you know you're never going to get away
[00:14:03] from the regulations
[00:14:05] it's not going to happen
[00:14:06] you're not going to get away from them
[00:14:08] so when we approach creative
[00:14:11] a lot of the time is like
[00:14:12] let's not do what's going to get approved
[00:14:15] right off the bat
[00:14:15] let's not even think about approvals right now
[00:14:18] let's not think about regulations right now
[00:14:20] let's just try to solve this with an idea
[00:14:22] let's come up with an idea
[00:14:24] once we come up with that idea
[00:14:26] then we have our own internal people
[00:14:28] that are you know the medical people
[00:14:30] people that know more about regulations
[00:14:32] that they're going to put it to the ringer
[00:14:35] you know
[00:14:35] I always tell them your ideas are going to get a big down
[00:14:39] yeah a good idea
[00:14:40] it's going to survive that big down
[00:14:42] all the way to the client side right
[00:14:44] so we pressure test them consistently
[00:14:46] but we don't start
[00:14:48] where you're thinking
[00:14:50] okay this is going to get approved
[00:14:52] so let's push that
[00:14:53] that would be a little bit easier
[00:14:57] I think you know
[00:14:58] but a lot less satisfying
[00:15:00] I love less creatively
[00:15:02] it's not as amazing
[00:15:04] than to
[00:15:06] most amazing thing in creative is to do something
[00:15:08] that you never thought it was going to be possible
[00:15:10] well I think it's hard to start with safe
[00:15:13] and end up with something
[00:15:15] particularly creative
[00:15:16] I think it's easier to start with brave
[00:15:19] and be able to pull back a little
[00:15:21] it reminds me of
[00:15:23] in the like
[00:15:24] late 80s early 90s it was just
[00:15:26] really really famous successful
[00:15:29] Calvin Klein ad campaign
[00:15:31] for obsession
[00:15:31] really racy black and white photos
[00:15:34] and I think it was Herbritz
[00:15:36] that was the photographer and he
[00:15:37] told a story of going to Calvin Klein
[00:15:40] with the first set of images for the campaign
[00:15:42] and he had sort of three images
[00:15:44] you know one that he knew
[00:15:46] was it going to be a yes
[00:15:47] one that were like kind of racy
[00:15:49] and probably pushed the limits a little bit
[00:15:51] and then a third set that he just
[00:15:53] he knew would never get approved
[00:15:54] and over time
[00:15:56] taking that same approach
[00:15:58] in year seven of the campaign
[00:16:01] the images that used to be
[00:16:02] in that third category that would never get approved
[00:16:05] had kind of moved over to the
[00:16:07] either like yeah
[00:16:08] these are for sure or these are
[00:16:10] these are a maybe and it was that approach
[00:16:12] of opening up the aperture
[00:16:15] a little bit and thinking
[00:16:17] about what's possible
[00:16:18] that helped to kind of a keep everybody
[00:16:21] fresh on what new
[00:16:23] might look like but also
[00:16:24] help get the client and the brand
[00:16:26] team comfortable with looking
[00:16:29] at things that made them just a bit
[00:16:30] uncomfortable and I
[00:16:32] always love that thought of
[00:16:34] doing that same thing
[00:16:36] with your healthcare clients and it
[00:16:38] sounds like
[00:16:40] that's kind of in keeping with
[00:16:42] your philosophy which is
[00:16:44] let's make sure we put stuff on the table
[00:16:46] that is probably going to get cut
[00:16:47] but we're going to build some muscle memory
[00:16:50] around doing things that are a bit different
[00:16:52] yeah and I feel that's the best way
[00:16:54] to be heard
[00:16:55] to be really respectful of the client
[00:16:58] and their expectations
[00:17:00] once you meet those I think then you can push
[00:17:03] a little bit more you know
[00:17:04] you can get into the surprising part of things
[00:17:07] yeah a lot of the times
[00:17:08] you have these overambitious
[00:17:11] creatives like going back to your example
[00:17:13] of like consumer agencies
[00:17:15] that have picked up like
[00:17:17] massive accounts in healthcare
[00:17:18] but haven't been able to maintain them
[00:17:21] there's a balance right
[00:17:22] you cannot push great creative work
[00:17:24] without knowing exactly how to navigate
[00:17:27] this whole all this like system
[00:17:29] that tells you that you can't
[00:17:30] in reality you can
[00:17:32] you just need to figure out how
[00:17:35] so that balance is super important
[00:17:38] and for us
[00:17:40] creativity is the main
[00:17:41] driver for this
[00:17:42] it's not the regulators
[00:17:44] it's not like they know what we're going to get
[00:17:46] to be able to give up and say okay well we finally got it out
[00:17:48] no it's really to believe
[00:17:50] on the core of an idea
[00:17:51] and once you have that core of the idea
[00:17:54] and you remain really
[00:17:57] attuned and really like
[00:17:58] attached to this core
[00:17:59] everything around it could be a variable
[00:18:02] but the core cannot be compromised
[00:18:04] you know so I think once you get that core
[00:18:06] you get to that core with the client
[00:18:07] with strategy with accounts with everyone
[00:18:09] once everyone believes in it
[00:18:11] it's a lot easier to push things forward
[00:18:13] well and I also think
[00:18:16] that being deeply
[00:18:18] knowledgeable
[00:18:20] about the regulatory environment
[00:18:22] and it's not just the regulatory environment
[00:18:25] it's also the nuances of healthcare marketing
[00:18:27] in a lot of ways unless you're doing a DTC campaign
[00:18:29] like healthcare marketing is B2B
[00:18:30] you're really
[00:18:32] marketing to physicians who are the gatekeepers
[00:18:34] to the ultimate patients
[00:18:36] and
[00:18:38] I found that so many times
[00:18:40] it was really a battle of inches
[00:18:42] so yes for sure
[00:18:44] as if you have a big DTC campaign
[00:18:47] or you're doing a launch
[00:18:48] but as often as not
[00:18:50] you've got a product that's a little bit more mature
[00:18:52] and really creative
[00:18:54] doesn't necessarily
[00:18:56] look like a brand new campaign
[00:18:58] really creative looks like
[00:18:59] elevating something from the product monograph
[00:19:01] that is a nuance
[00:19:04] that gives the sales team
[00:19:05] an in to have a more meaningful conversation
[00:19:08] where if you put that
[00:19:09] down in front of a more consumer
[00:19:12] oriented you know creative or marketer
[00:19:14] they'd say well that's not very creative at all
[00:19:16] but in fact
[00:19:17] it's often
[00:19:19] little things that feel like huge
[00:19:21] wins so it's a bit of
[00:19:23] sometimes those
[00:19:25] wins can almost feel a bit microscopic
[00:19:27] but they can still feel really good
[00:19:29] absolutely
[00:19:31] and you know where
[00:19:33] I think you can always push
[00:19:35] to be able to continue to elevate
[00:19:37] the creative
[00:19:39] even though if it's like you're
[00:19:40] really putting something that's on the monograph
[00:19:43] strategy super important
[00:19:45] every market is very different right
[00:19:47] a lot of the time canadian brands get
[00:19:49] global creative
[00:19:50] they need to apply into canada
[00:19:53] and a lot of the time that doesn't fly
[00:19:54] because the regulations are very different
[00:19:56] and because the needs of our market here
[00:19:58] are also very different
[00:19:59] the behavior of people is very different
[00:20:02] so there's definitely a lot of space
[00:20:04] to be able to
[00:20:05] think that created that comes from global
[00:20:08] and change it in a way
[00:20:09] or redo it at times
[00:20:12] that has to happen
[00:20:13] in a way that becomes completely relevant
[00:20:15] to the market that we're living in here in canada
[00:20:18] and to the behaviors that physicians
[00:20:20] and patients and consumers have
[00:20:21] in regard of that specific product
[00:20:24] the other thing
[00:20:25] what I think they're a huge push
[00:20:27] that's super important
[00:20:28] and it's one thing that it's not regulated
[00:20:31] it's the craft
[00:20:32] the craft is like this beautiful thing
[00:20:35] that we can always create
[00:20:36] that it will never be regulated
[00:20:37] no one can tell you this is too pretty
[00:20:40] you can't make it pretty like that
[00:20:41] this is like beautiful
[00:20:42] as long as you're moving through to what you're saying
[00:20:45] I think that's a great opportunity
[00:20:47] in the craft
[00:20:48] on how things sound
[00:20:50] and how things are written over
[00:20:51] how beautiful the image is
[00:20:53] all that craft plays a pretty important role
[00:20:58] to be able to elevate the work as well
[00:20:59] that has spoken like a true creative right there
[00:21:04] that
[00:21:05] the love
[00:21:06] of that little nuance
[00:21:08] that just
[00:21:09] brings it to life in such a special way
[00:21:12] it's funny I was actually
[00:21:14] this morning talking to
[00:21:16] owner of another healthcare agency
[00:21:18] and we were talking about
[00:21:20] US ADAPT work
[00:21:21] and when you go back to that early concept of
[00:21:23] clients wanting to do good work
[00:21:24] I don't know if there's a lot of
[00:21:27] clients out there
[00:21:28] who get really excited
[00:21:31] about being in a brand leadership position
[00:21:33] and being handed a playbook
[00:21:35] that they then have to implement
[00:21:36] I do think that clients
[00:21:39] enjoy the creative process
[00:21:41] they enjoy working with creative agencies
[00:21:42] especially ones they can along with really well
[00:21:44] and sometimes
[00:21:45] even though you're not starting from a blank piece of paper
[00:21:49] taking
[00:21:50] global work
[00:21:51] and really elegantly adapting it to the Canadian marketplace
[00:21:55] is an exercise in creativity
[00:21:57] and is also an opportunity for
[00:21:59] clients to feel like they can
[00:22:01] put their fingerprint on their own brand a little bit
[00:22:03] right?
[00:22:04] Absolutely and those opportunities exist
[00:22:07] they exist
[00:22:08] you just gotta dig for them
[00:22:10] you gotta find that little insight that is different
[00:22:12] than what global put in front of you
[00:22:14] and then just build on that
[00:22:16] and to your point
[00:22:17] I think on the client side as marketers
[00:22:21] they all want to have a say
[00:22:23] and have their flavor
[00:22:25] attached to what
[00:22:27] global has provided to them
[00:22:28] to be able to make it Canadian for their market
[00:22:30] you know so there's
[00:22:32] another push there that's actually possible to do
[00:22:35] and with their white clients
[00:22:36] like the stuff that comes out of it
[00:22:37] it's absolutely amazing
[00:22:39] and if I go back to the core
[00:22:41] that I was talking earlier about
[00:22:44] there's a core in the global ideas as well
[00:22:46] you know and I think as long as
[00:22:48] they remain absolutely true to that core
[00:22:51] again the peripheral of it
[00:22:52] could vary a little bit
[00:22:53] so there's always an argument
[00:22:55] say well yeah of course this comes from global
[00:22:58] but for this market because of ABC
[00:23:00] this has to change slightly
[00:23:02] and a lot of the time
[00:23:04] that it works
[00:23:05] although you look at the things they may look different
[00:23:08] but the strategy
[00:23:09] is on point
[00:23:11] the actual core of the idea
[00:23:14] still remains
[00:23:14] and it's quite respected
[00:23:17] but you know that's
[00:23:19] and I think that's a challenge that all countries
[00:23:22] live when they gotta
[00:23:23] apply a global campaign
[00:23:24] we do a lot of global campaigns
[00:23:27] a tank and we take all of this
[00:23:30] into consideration you know
[00:23:31] we need to have everyone at the table
[00:23:33] everyone has these very subtle changes
[00:23:36] in culture that actually
[00:23:37] extremely important to consider
[00:23:39] when we develop a campaign
[00:23:42] that's meant and you want it to be
[00:23:43] applied with excitement
[00:23:45] in other countries as well
[00:23:46] so one of the things that helps us as well
[00:23:48] that is we're on both sides of that table
[00:23:50] sometimes we have to apply them
[00:23:52] sometimes we have to deliver them
[00:23:55] we'll be right back
[00:23:58] today's episode of the Pharma Brands Podcast
[00:24:01] is brought to you in part by Metrix
[00:24:03] Metrix is a Canadian agency
[00:24:05] that helps life science companies
[00:24:07] across North America
[00:24:08] market their products
[00:24:09] support their patients and train their employees
[00:24:11] with a unique 360 degree perspective
[00:24:15] that connects brand strategy
[00:24:16] with field execution
[00:24:17] and builds on decades of experience
[00:24:20] Metrix delivers amazing impact
[00:24:21] in short, they help clients
[00:24:24] make behavior change happen
[00:24:26] if you're seeking greater impact
[00:24:27] from your sales and marketing teams
[00:24:29] it's time to call Metrix
[00:24:30] learn more at metricsgroup.com
[00:24:33] that's M-E-T-R-I-X-Group.com
[00:24:37] now back to the show
[00:24:38] when you look back
[00:24:42] at the Canadian market specifically
[00:24:46] and maybe this is one of those
[00:24:47] how long is a piece of string questions
[00:24:50] so apologies if it's too broad
[00:24:52] but what kind of shifts are you seeing
[00:24:55] with your clients in terms of
[00:24:56] new channels
[00:24:58] appetites for new ideas
[00:25:00] or is it still kind of the same?
[00:25:03] I think the
[00:25:05] and it is a big question, Neil
[00:25:07] it's a big question
[00:25:08] but I'll give it a...
[00:25:09] even as I had it in my head
[00:25:11] I'm like I don't know
[00:25:12] let's see, let's give it a shot
[00:25:14] I'll give it a shot
[00:25:15] I think one of the things that I'm noticing
[00:25:17] is the ambition from the client
[00:25:20] to do amazing work
[00:25:22] that's one change in attitude
[00:25:24] it's more of a change in attitude
[00:25:26] than a change in output
[00:25:27] I think what's been happening
[00:25:29] in the past few years
[00:25:31] is that healthcare
[00:25:32] and I would say
[00:25:35] that the pandemic kind of like
[00:25:37] contributed to this accelerating aspect
[00:25:39] of making healthcare
[00:25:41] there are a little bit more of a common conversation
[00:25:44] there's been a lot more access
[00:25:45] to healthcare communication
[00:25:46] than ever before
[00:25:48] there's been more need
[00:25:50] and more awareness
[00:25:53] especially for the DTC
[00:25:54] part of things of course
[00:25:56] so I think that clients
[00:25:58] or the shift that I'm seeing
[00:26:00] is that clients want to do great things
[00:26:02] they want to use technology
[00:26:04] to do great things
[00:26:06] they want segmentation
[00:26:07] that's going to be more precise
[00:26:09] it's not only the print campaign anymore
[00:26:12] it's not only the TV spot anymore
[00:26:14] that's just like a small channel
[00:26:16] it's more about the bigger idea
[00:26:18] that's going to be able to change behavior
[00:26:19] and what does that look like
[00:26:21] is it a partnership with Uber
[00:26:24] is it a billboard
[00:26:26] that is
[00:26:28] so simple that you need to dig for information
[00:26:30] is it a new radio station
[00:26:33] that you're creating
[00:26:34] there are so many things
[00:26:35] how can we implement AI
[00:26:37] is AI actually relevant
[00:26:38] in what we're trying to
[00:26:41] convene
[00:26:42] is it just white noise
[00:26:44] so all those questions are being asked
[00:26:47] very differently right now
[00:26:48] and the conversations are very much
[00:26:51] in aligning with a bigger strategy
[00:26:54] versus at delivery
[00:26:55] of a piece of material
[00:26:57] for a certain medium
[00:26:58] so that I think it's the
[00:27:01] size of the potential
[00:27:03] of the communication that has changed a little bit
[00:27:07] you mentioned the pandemic being
[00:27:08] a driver of that
[00:27:10] are there other shifts
[00:27:13] that you're seeing
[00:27:14] that's driving
[00:27:16] some of that behavior change
[00:27:18] I wonder if there's a
[00:27:20] a bit of a new generation
[00:27:22] of marketers that are coming in
[00:27:24] I know that there's lots of folks
[00:27:26] on the client side
[00:27:28] who are bringing in
[00:27:31] what you would consider
[00:27:32] non-traditional marketers
[00:27:34] from outside of healthcare
[00:27:37] which obviously is going to
[00:27:38] change the attitude
[00:27:41] in the tone
[00:27:41] can you point to any other drivers
[00:27:45] that you see for that change
[00:27:47] or is it just a bit of a shift
[00:27:48] that's happening over time
[00:27:50] that's a great point
[00:27:51] and I do think it's funny because
[00:27:54] just the other day I was thinking
[00:27:55] oh my god I used to be the youngest
[00:27:57] in the room
[00:27:59] and I'm like wow okay the clients are really
[00:28:01] young now
[00:28:03] and they know a lot
[00:28:05] more about what's happening in social media
[00:28:07] and how to navigate it
[00:28:09] it's a true extension of themselves
[00:28:11] so the way they use it is a little bit different
[00:28:13] and of course that has
[00:28:15] influenced how they apply
[00:28:17] their everyday behavior into their work
[00:28:19] as marketers as well
[00:28:21] so that has definitely changed
[00:28:23] that aspect of the reach
[00:28:25] that we have now to
[00:28:28] physicians and to consumer
[00:28:29] it's very different now
[00:28:32] it's not only
[00:28:35] conventional mediums
[00:28:36] the conventional mediums
[00:28:37] for me are just
[00:28:38] what you have to do
[00:28:40] but in order to really generate
[00:28:43] change you're going to think a little bit
[00:28:45] different what is the extension of the human being
[00:28:48] that
[00:28:49] you're going to be able to tap into
[00:28:50] a certain behavior that you want to change
[00:28:53] or amplify
[00:28:54] so to answer your question
[00:28:57] very briefly
[00:28:59] absolutely the clients that we have now
[00:29:02] I feel they're a lot more knowledgeable
[00:29:05] on
[00:29:06] the things
[00:29:08] that they're using right now
[00:29:09] technology, social media all of that
[00:29:11] because of their age
[00:29:12] but on the agency side we have that as well
[00:29:14] so that's kind of like a nice marriage
[00:29:17] that's kind of like accelerating
[00:29:19] all this shift as well
[00:29:20] it's very cool to see
[00:29:22] of course it has happened over time
[00:29:24] but if I look back over time
[00:29:26] and I think you would agree with that
[00:29:28] change used to take longer than it does now
[00:29:31] for sure
[00:29:32] I think change took longer
[00:29:34] and it took more
[00:29:36] sort of brute force sometimes
[00:29:39] to make that change happen
[00:29:40] I think there's a different appetite
[00:29:42] as well as a different velocity
[00:29:44] for that change
[00:29:45] and it's funny that you mentioned
[00:29:46] used to be the youngest in the room
[00:29:48] I was saying to someone the other day
[00:29:49] when I started my agency
[00:29:51] I wasn't that much older
[00:29:54] than my youngest employee
[00:29:56] and when I sold the agency
[00:29:57] I wasn't that much younger
[00:29:59] than the parents of my youngest employee
[00:30:01] so it's like that's a bit of a shift
[00:30:06] but with age comes perspective
[00:30:08] Marty
[00:30:08] so I've kind of
[00:30:11] dangled the whole can thing a couple times
[00:30:13] let's talk about that
[00:30:14] you were a judge
[00:30:16] you were just a first round judge
[00:30:18] you were in the room
[00:30:19] in France
[00:30:20] with the team making the final decisions
[00:30:23] talk to me about how did you get involved
[00:30:26] how long have you been involved
[00:30:27] and what was that experience like
[00:30:29] that was incredible
[00:30:31] it was incredible
[00:30:34] and it was a tremendous amount of work
[00:30:38] tremendous amount of work
[00:30:40] that I think you could never be prepared for
[00:30:45] especially the category that I was judging
[00:30:47] health and wellness
[00:30:49] it's a big category
[00:30:50] everyone
[00:30:52] every brand
[00:30:54] has a right to play
[00:30:55] in health and wellness
[00:30:56] so you can imagine from car companies
[00:30:59] beer companies
[00:31:00] everyone had a say
[00:31:01] or at least an argument
[00:31:03] that they belong in health and wellness
[00:31:05] the process was quite
[00:31:07] it was very interesting
[00:31:08] it's the global mail
[00:31:11] that represents Canada
[00:31:12] with CAN
[00:31:13] so they're the ones who put forward the nominations
[00:31:16] so there are several nominations
[00:31:18] you go through several stages
[00:31:19] and can has a last say
[00:31:21] because of the amount of entries
[00:31:26] judges started online
[00:31:28] for the live judges
[00:31:29] plus there were judges
[00:31:31] that were just judging online
[00:31:33] so the live judges
[00:31:35] had to do both online
[00:31:36] and live judging
[00:31:38] so when we get to CAN
[00:31:40] we already have a bit of a long list
[00:31:42] of projects that we're going to be discussing
[00:31:44] and then it's like three days
[00:31:46] in a dark room
[00:31:47] three very long days
[00:31:48] with the most amazing people
[00:31:52] and the most amazing discussions
[00:31:54] that could have been over culture
[00:31:55] over one specific piece
[00:31:58] over restrictions
[00:31:59] that exist in different markets
[00:32:01] over what is health and wellness
[00:32:03] and why is this health and wellness
[00:32:06] honestly absolutely amazing
[00:32:07] the jury room
[00:32:09] in this
[00:32:11] this is the first jury
[00:32:13] that I've ever been part of
[00:32:14] in which we have somebody from the client side
[00:32:16] interesting
[00:32:17] who was a senior client as part of the jury
[00:32:21] yeah
[00:32:22] it was phenomenal
[00:32:24] absolutely phenomenal
[00:32:26] we all walked in there
[00:32:28] we met before
[00:32:29] he was very funny
[00:32:31] he's like oh I'm like the one out here
[00:32:33] yeah
[00:32:35] one of these things is not like the other one
[00:32:37] don't hate me
[00:32:38] but it was absolutely phenomenal
[00:32:40] because it gives you
[00:32:42] how important
[00:32:45] it is for clients
[00:32:46] and the fact that a client was there
[00:32:49] how important it is for companies as well
[00:32:51] to be able to have work
[00:32:53] that is relevant
[00:32:54] work that actually shows results
[00:32:57] you know or work that actually
[00:32:59] shifts the thinking
[00:33:01] but delivers on those business results as well
[00:33:04] so it was really really really cool
[00:33:06] you know that the room was filled with
[00:33:10] so much richness
[00:33:12] in
[00:33:14] brightness
[00:33:14] there were two judges from the US
[00:33:18] one from Kenya
[00:33:20] one from the UK
[00:33:23] one from Hong Kong
[00:33:24] one from China
[00:33:25] one from India
[00:33:26] myself from Canada
[00:33:28] so
[00:33:29] and the client who was from France
[00:33:32] you can imagine the mix of cultures
[00:33:35] in one room talking about
[00:33:36] one piece
[00:33:38] that we some of us evaluated high
[00:33:40] some of us evaluated low
[00:33:42] because of a lack of
[00:33:45] attachment to what is saying to the culture
[00:33:47] as an example
[00:33:47] the conversations were just absolutely magnificent
[00:33:50] magnificent conversations
[00:33:51] and I know that CLIC
[00:33:54] won a innovation award at the Health Lions
[00:33:56] for that voice
[00:33:58] app that they developed
[00:33:59] but on the creative side
[00:34:00] was there Canadian work in the mix?
[00:34:04] in health and wellness
[00:34:05] there was no Canadian work in the mix
[00:34:09] well that hurts my national pride
[00:34:11] a little bit
[00:34:11] it hurts us all
[00:34:13] so we have more work to do
[00:34:15] we are going to use it as a motivator
[00:34:18] so did you see
[00:34:20] one or two pieces of work
[00:34:22] that really stood out for you
[00:34:24] that you could talk a little bit about?
[00:34:27] absolutely
[00:34:28] actually the one that won the Grand Prix
[00:34:30] was absolutely phenomenal
[00:34:31] phenomenal piece
[00:34:33] what I loved about it
[00:34:34] it's an old drug
[00:34:36] that has never been really
[00:34:41] modernized
[00:34:41] if I put it that way
[00:34:45] it's one of the over-the-counter
[00:34:46] medication that you take for nausea
[00:34:48] and the way they approach it
[00:34:51] was with a lot of humor
[00:34:53] a lot of humor
[00:34:54] like pharma products
[00:34:56] that use humor to sell
[00:34:59] it's not very often that you see that
[00:35:01] but what I love about it
[00:35:03] is that the approach that it took
[00:35:05] is we are going to promote
[00:35:07] our drug
[00:35:08] by saying that we're killing another business
[00:35:11] am I alright?
[00:35:13] how is this going to happen?
[00:35:13] so the other business
[00:35:16] that they were killing was the barf bag
[00:35:18] this next
[00:35:20] you know
[00:35:20] so they found these collectors of barf bags
[00:35:23] and they've been collecting for years
[00:35:26] like
[00:35:26] they created these beautiful
[00:35:31] exposition
[00:35:32] so that in their houses
[00:35:33] they took them out of their houses
[00:35:35] to be able to put them into
[00:35:36] the barf bag museum
[00:35:39] the whole thing was just absolutely brilliant
[00:35:41] they made a film
[00:35:42] the film rena trabeca
[00:35:45] which again I thought it was
[00:35:47] I go back to what I was saying before
[00:35:49] it's not only about a print tag
[00:35:51] it's about how this lives in the world
[00:35:52] they had a trabeca
[00:35:54] they had a museum
[00:35:55] they were selling barf bags online
[00:35:58] they sold out
[00:36:00] the barf bags were sold with the product
[00:36:02] it was like absolutely magnificent
[00:36:04] very smart
[00:36:06] very clever
[00:36:07] and all of it was born out of a letter
[00:36:11] that one of the marketers
[00:36:13] received from
[00:36:14] somebody who said you're putting our community
[00:36:17] of barf bag collectors
[00:36:19] in danger
[00:36:19] amazing
[00:36:22] really really amazing
[00:36:24] and like I said
[00:36:26] it's rare that humor
[00:36:29] starts to play a big part
[00:36:31] in this brand
[00:36:33] but
[00:36:33] going back to the early part of our conversation
[00:36:37] that's about a creative
[00:36:39] being really open
[00:36:41] to signals from
[00:36:43] unexpected places
[00:36:44] like the letter that they received
[00:36:46] and I also smile
[00:36:48] as someone who's been in the room
[00:36:50] a lot of times when both good
[00:36:52] and frankly not so good ideas
[00:36:55] are put out on the table
[00:36:57] I always sort of smile
[00:37:00] thinking about
[00:37:01] someone in that meeting
[00:37:03] one of those early meetings
[00:37:05] putting up their hands and saying
[00:37:07] what about a campaign where we put
[00:37:09] barf bags out of business
[00:37:10] and you talk about
[00:37:13] we talked about bravery earlier
[00:37:16] that's a brave client
[00:37:17] to say yes to that
[00:37:18] that's a creative team who can bring that to life
[00:37:20] in a way that is impactful
[00:37:22] those are tough ideas to say yes to
[00:37:25] and they're really tough ideas to pull through
[00:37:26] and have them live out in the world
[00:37:28] in a way that's meaningful
[00:37:30] I totally agree with you
[00:37:32] I always want to be
[00:37:34] hiding somewhere
[00:37:35] listening to those conversations
[00:37:37] what is that first reaction
[00:37:39] that's amazing or are you crazy
[00:37:42] yeah well and many times
[00:37:44] I'm sure you do the same
[00:37:45] I see something on a billboard
[00:37:46] or whatever on the radio
[00:37:49] and I think to myself
[00:37:51] got the number of people that needed to say yes
[00:37:53] to that terrible piece of creative
[00:37:56] like how did that thing
[00:37:57] ever get out in the world
[00:38:00] listen I could obviously
[00:38:03] chat with you for hours
[00:38:04] there has to be a point that we say
[00:38:06] okay I think we have to wrap this up
[00:38:08] talking about
[00:38:10] global creative and your experience
[00:38:11] at Cannes feels like a good place
[00:38:13] to end
[00:38:14] I really appreciate your candor
[00:38:17] it's not easy
[00:38:18] to be a senior agency person
[00:38:19] and talk openly about what it takes
[00:38:21] to get great work out there
[00:38:23] I really appreciate how open and honest
[00:38:25] and funny
[00:38:27] and what candor you brought to the conversation
[00:38:29] so thank you very much
[00:38:30] pleasure and thanks so much for having me
[00:38:33] I really appreciate it
[00:38:34] thanks for listening everyone
[00:38:38] and thanks again to Metrics for their partnership
[00:38:40] we truly appreciate it
[00:38:41] check them out at MetricsGroup.com
[00:38:45] our next episode drops in two weeks
[00:38:46] and it's going to feature my conversation
[00:38:48] with Jennifer Speeran
[00:38:49] VP GM of Impact to Canada
[00:38:51] hope to see you back here on September 25th