Rola Amer, Director of Sales and Marketing at Merck on Expanding Your Perspective Through Curiosity, Listening to the Customer and Taking a Break from Pharma to Start a Business

Welcome And A Nonlinear Path

My name is Rola Ammer, and I'm the commercial director overseeing the rare disease franchise with Merc Canada here. Amazing. Rola, thank you for joining me this morning. Thank you, Neil, for having me.

I feel like we've had very different mornings. Like my morning was uh I got a coffee and got set up on the podcast, and you've been doing lots of running around and taking care of uh kids and dogs and a lot of things. So uh thank you for for taking the time to sit down sit down with me today.

And thanks, Neil, for having me. I'm really humbled by the invite and I'm looking forward to our chat.

Um okay, so the the first note that I have from our last conversation is nonlinear career. So I am excited to chat about your time in pharma and uh you know what you do and your perspective, but I'm just as excited to chat about your time out of pharma and what you've done and how that has helped kind of um shape your approach to your current

From Science To Regulatory Foundations

role. So why don't we go back? Because it feels like there's maybe a few chapters. Why don't we go back to the beginning? Talk to me a little bit about how you started in the pharma industry, um, and then we'll move on to when you stepped out of it.

That's a that's a great starting point, Neil. So if I look back and really reflect on to your point, this like nonlinear journey, I've by design taken on, and I would say really starting with my deep curiosity and passion for learning. I think about completing a Bachelor of Science degree out of uh McGill University. I'm actually originally from Toronto, like yourself, and really starting off with that degree in clinical research. That was the beginning of me learning the discipline of pharma, the rigor of pharma, really at the early stage from drug development uh through to then moving on to regulatory affairs, where I understood not only how do we clinically design our pharmaceutical products to come to market, but then how do we work with our regulators so that we can commercialize them and ultimately serve the patients and customers that we engage on on the commercial side. Those early years really shaped my understanding of the rigor that goes into pharmaceutical manufacturing. And from there, I had this wonderful opportunity in my regulatory affairs position to work closely with some of the marketing folks in Pharma and helping support them, get their campaigns ready, their promotional assets out there. And just being a naturally curious person, looking at their pieces, thinking about their end user, just asking them and myself, is this really the most effective way to communicate to our customers about this incredible product that I just worked on from the regulatory side of things? And it was actually a marketing manager at the time that was like, uh, maybe kind of like that's not typically what a regulatory person will say, you know? She was just like, Are you sure you're in the right place for yourself? And I was just like, no clue what haircutters even did. And I was like, Oh, why do you say that? And she's like, I think you're actually more of a marketer than you realize. And so that kind of opened up this window of opportunity for me.

Exactly. You're helping to craft messaging. So maybe, yeah.

Yeah, like I was like, this looks really good from a regulatory perspective. Like it's totally on label, in line with the monograph, but I do you really want to say that to your customer? And so that was kind of the window uh that opened up for me by which I started to consider moving. And, you know, a lot of people in industry at that time were very much into a linear progression, right? Like you did the depth of experience, you built in regulatory, you move upwards in that uh vertical. And at that point in time, I was like, no, I think I've done my time in regulatory. I think I'm actually interested in to your point, crafting those stories and messages and getting really close to the customer. And so I was really fortunate and I worked in this organization that really um hand selected those who they felt were up and coming talent. And so, in some ways, Neil, I hate to say it, but I was kind of given the opportunity to just do the 180 and jump into a product manager role at the time. Um product manager managed almost everything commercially end-to-end. You were the marketer, you were the forecaster. And so I stepped into this role and realized very quickly by being that close to the customer how much I loved marketing and how much I loved it because of the ability to craft stories and that I was really good at storytelling. So

Jumping Into Product Management Fast

that would be really like my chapter, as you say, in learning the discipline of Farma.

And so what was, and I appreciate it was a while ago, but but if you can reflect back on that, on that shift, what what felt um what felt like the biggest sort of um, you know, you don't know what you don't know moments as you go from this kind of uh clinical and regulatory uh mindset and world over into the product manager role? Because as you say, I mean, I think uh you know agency folks often think of product managers as as uh you know in the marketing context, because that's the the sort of point of interaction. But the product manager role, obviously, is is is really sort of like quite you know broad and complex. And so as you made that transition, what what were the moments where you were like, oh wow, sort of I hadn't thought about this, um, and and uh where there was maybe some sort of like interesting learning uh moments uh as you settled into a product manager role.

I'm so happy you asked that question, Neil, because as you were asking it, I was reflecting on exactly that first date as a product manager. Here I was thinking, oh, this is gonna be not so much a walk in the park, but like, I'm just gonna flip the storytelling we do with our Health Canada regulators, right? You take the data, you're telling a story about your molecule, and now I'm just gonna craft it in a way towards the end user, our customers who are gonna prescribe this for the patients we serve. And it was on week one, my sales manager comes to me and she's like, we've got to prepare for a symposio for this upcoming Congress. I kid you not, Neil. I had no clue the symposious. I was about to say, like, Google Symposia. You nailed it. I literally went to the go, I went to Google and I'm like, what is a symposia and what am I supposed to do here? So the least to say, the first year I was focused very much as a product manager on execution, supporting the sales team, very much taking direction, mentorship from those commercial leaders around me that were real commercial leaders. You know, they carried the bag, they'd done it all, you know. So that was the first year of huge learnings. But what I again, going back to that curiosity and always being aligned to my own interest, what I noticed is every time I would go to these conferences and interact with customers, I'd learn something new and I'd want to apply it back to my strategy or the brand plan that we crafted together. And I would love my time with customers. There was something so awakening about actually getting insights directly from those that you write about on your decks, right? So I knew I was on to something. And then I think after I got more comfortable with uh the commercial rhyme, right? Like there's still a there's a rhythm in pharma that's very similar, regardless of what therapeutic area you're in. I started then to apply more strategic thinking because I would want to pull in the insights, whether it be from my sales team or whether it's at a Congress listening to a talk about our product. And that's where I started to move from a very good executionary of brand plans to like now being very strategic and thoughtful in what it is that I was setting out for the team to do. And I have to say, Neil, lastly on that point, I'm so fortunate I've had the type of leaders I've had early in my career. I kid you not, my marketing director, I think it was year two as a product manager, would not sign off on any tactic or campaign I'd come up with if it did not directly tie to a strategic pillar in a brand plan. And that discipline taught me to really think this through. That's interesting. And I don't see that as much anymore. I see, and he would always push back, he'll be like, Rolla, is this a tactic in search of a strategy? Or is that a real strategy, you know, attached a tactic attached to a strategy, if that makes any sense.

Yeah. Well, and I imagine that that um uh you you probably didn't need to be asked that many times because the is this a tactic in search of a strategy? If you don't have a great answer, that that that sort of stings a little bit, right? You want to be like, oh, damn, good question. I really okay, give me a second, I'll be right back, you know? Yeah. Um it's so interesting too that you talk about how um uh kind of powerful those those direct uh uh customer insights are. And it's always a it's always a bit of a balance, I think. I I I um you know, you've you've seen it when when um you know marketing talks to sales and there's a sales, uh, you know, there's a rep or a territory manager who has um you know a really great relationship with a you know physician or KOL and they come back and they're like, you know, this is this is what our marketing needs to be talking

Field Insights Versus KOL Reality

about. And it's always, I think, a tension between um uh bringing those customer insights into the marketing pieces while also trying to ensure that you're not having sort of one or two outspoken customers design all of your marketing for you, right?

Yeah, I think you really nailed it on that one, Neil, too, for me. Because if I reflect on where my greatest learnings came from, it was twofold. One, to your point, being out there in the field, meeting with customers. But then it was always interesting to see whenever I'd attend some of the advisory boards that medical colleagues would hold, right? Because now you're you've brought in your top thought leaders in that therapeutic area, right? And it's interesting to see how they would view things versus what you had heard in the field, because sometimes there's synergies and there's sometimes actually a lot of uh disconnect between those two realities. Because to your point, the top thought leaders sometimes are those who are really well academically published, right? Yeah. Know the data, but they're not always the ones that are caring for patients at the bedside. And I would even argue are really the ones who are, you know, in a health Canadian system dealing with the constraints, dealing with the challenges of being workforce strained, not having enough staff on hand or access to diagnostics. So this is where, at least with my team now at Merck, I always encourage my marketers to be so close to the field, going out there, meeting with customers, not just relying on the market research report output or having the opportunity to sit through these advisory boards, because it's really important to get up there, in my opinion.

Oh, a thousand percent. And I also think um uh I know it is uh it is more it is more challenging, I think especially even now, but but even um you know having agency partners um to the extent possible uh get sort of you know firsthand voice of the customer uh experience. It really changes it really changes the the the context. Like I I think back on on our uh times and and this feels very much like the olden days where uh you know we would do market research and be sort of sitting behind the glass and um and and experiencing conversations with with uh with either physicians or patients. And it just it was so transformative in terms of uh even just understanding um uh uh you know sort of language versus what we would write in you know in in our boardrooms uh versus uh you know what lands in a in a in a clinical setting. Like it's just it's it's it's it's it's incredibly important. So um and it must have been really insightful for you again, coming from that clinical setting, and now you're into marketing, and now you're into marketing where you're in engaging with with uh uh you know with the direct customers. So um so you you move up through the the marketing uh uh roles, you end up being a a senior marketing manager, yeah, and then I think you decide to go back to school.

I did. It was not planned for again.

Executive MBA Amid Acquisition Uncertainty

Like a lot of things sometimes, but again, it just goes back to this deep curiosity I have. So the story is I actually this one tasted company that I'd been with for 10 years, like all you know, smaller pharmaceutical companies got acquired by a larger pharmaceutical company. And at that time, I realized that during this time of change and uncertainty, right? Like acquisitions take anywhere between a year to two years to settle. Um, that maybe the best thing that I could do for myself was invest in myself, you know, in a time of uncertainty and change and whatnot, where I spent eight hours a day, um, if not more, sometimes. And so it was a lifelong kind of goal of mine to get higher education. As I'd mentioned, I finished a Bachelor of Science in Biochemistry from McGill. And through my marketing and commercial experience, I really wanted to hone in my business acumen even that much more. And so I looked at doing an executive MBA at that point in time. I also found myself to be pregnant for the second time. And I thought, you know, as a second-time mom, I kind of know how this goes. Um, you think you're in control of schedules, but that's not the reality of this. And I'm going to uh take that time and do this executive MBA. I selected the Queen's program at the time. It was called the Queen's Executive MBA. I think now the school's been rebranded into Smith School of Business. It was the shortest program. It was one that uh catered to the fact that I could do this partially virtually, had to go on campus a couple of times throughout the program. And they set me up with a virtual team because there were others like myself who were out in Eastern Canada or in the prairies that, you know, they couldn't form that Toronto cohort that they had. Um and that experience, despite you know, the obstacles I had, two young children under five. I don't have a village that helps to raise these kids, except for me and my husband. And what I found is that I was just invigorated by the learning. So I showed up, always engaged in all the discussions. I was inspired by everybody in my class. In fact, we still till this day share a WhatsApp group and we share stories and we refer back to the time we were together. But more importantly, than you know, the academic learnings, and it gave me for the first time in my life's journey my own sense of validation that I can do things on my own. And then I didn't need that year-end review to tell me I was doing a great job. I didn't need to be shortlisted for succession planning, you know, like I'd always looked for previous to this experience. You know, I would turn these papers, I would engage, and the you have to understand, you know, the people in my cohort at that time I joined in as a senior marketing manager, these were CEOs, EFOs. Like these were seasoned leaders. And so the fact that I could commend and they looked to me for what I had to say really gave me that fantastic opportunity to just further hone in my own abilities. And I'll never forget at that time we were in our venture capitalist class, and they showed this slide of just what was something I had lived through that pharma was being consolidated because pipelines invasion was kind of drying up. If you think about it, we're no longer in the era of a million new molecules, right? Where's there you'll get one new blockbuster every couple of years now? And so as a result, the industry is consolidating. And it was in that moment in time that I kind of had this aha moment of I can think bigger for myself. I can expand more than

Choosing Entrepreneurship With Eyes Open

what I thought I wanted at that point in time. And for me, expansion looked like stepping out of the discipline of pharma and building something from zero. And building something from zero, not in healthcare. You know what I mean? Like it, I look back on it and it it's incredible the courage it took on my car. You have to understand, Neil, like I'm a very, you know, non-linear by design, but I'm also still a risk-averse person. Like I, you know, like I do the work, I put my head down, and here I was thinking, wow, this is actually exciting.

Which is it's well, first of all, like this last little clip is like an ad for MBA schools. I mean, it's like I'm I'm gonna send this over to the Queen's MBA, uh uh obviously hugely impactful. Um, but yes, like you, I mean, you you you sort of took the words right out of my my my brain there, where I'm thinking, um, you know, the the the courage, and I like yes, there's a combination of courage, but like clearly there was a there was a fire that was lit. But I also contemplate this world where uh you know you also just said you've got two kids under five, uh, you know, it's just you and your husband. Like the the barriers for folks to uh uh you know, I think go out on their own. I mean, first of all, um it sort of you know, being a clinician uh feels often a long way away from from being an entrepreneur, right? So so there's this entrepreneurial spirit that you I think you just need to have. But you know, the barriers are often like, you know, can I do this financially? Um, you know, can I can I commit the time? Like, does this fit into my lifestyle? Like, you know, does uh uh, you know, and also obviously, you know, do I have an idea that that feels viable? Um, and and you know, switching careers, uh, two little kids, uh, you know, going out and and and running a you know, starting and running a business uh versus being within a mechanism that that is really quite structured, right? Like pharma is an industry, you know, the roles are really well defined, you kind of know where you're supposed to go next, you've got lots of scaffolding around you. Like it almost couldn't be more different than than going out and starting your business. So, so like baby, what was what was the idea? And did you have to check off boxes in your head uh, you know, before um uh saying, yes, like this, this does sort of you know fit my life, or this does feel like a you know a safe enough risk? Like what was what was the decision process and and what was the business?

Such an important conversation, Yil. I'm so happy you took it there. Because I have to be really honest in that you're right in so many aspects and having lived through entrepreneurship, like real entrepreneurship, I think we over-romanticize that journey. Oh my god, yes. Right? Like 150%. And I think we have to be honest about what it is that we're running toward when we do such a pivot, like I did. Like it's not just courage, it requires stamina, humility, and a willingness to begin again. You know what I mean? So, going back to your question, you're absolutely right. It wasn't just like in a moment of sitting in a classroom, seeing the slide, or I actually did go back to work after I completed my MBA. It didn't last long. It was six months. I because I just felt misaligned. I was back, I actually went moved into a promotional opportunity, and they had plans for me. They had plans to groom me, and it wasn't an easy decision for me to make at that time for those reasons. One, but also to your point, like there are financial implications when you step out on your own. And I was fortunate enough in that um the 10 years I had dedicated to the company. Previous to the one acquired, had a phenomenal stock option plan for all their employees. These were not reserved for only their leaders. And so I did have some shares sold that could hone me in and allow me to experiment in this new reality I was choosing to put myself into. I also had a phenomenal partner. My husband is himself an entrepreneur, a very successful entrepreneur who's had successful exits. And so it was definitely a conversation that I had to get his buy-in on. And so I would say he was very much someone who supported that journey. And he also saw that at that point in time, it's not that I didn't love pharma for myself. I just wanted to try something new before I, to be honest, got the ultimate golden handcuffs because I knew the minute I would step into a director role that's moving into an executive director role that would I would never step out. And so that was the stakes, the stakes become so much higher.

Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh yeah. So that's the conversation I had with my director at the time. It's kind of like, I kind of know I need to do this now or I'll regret it for the rest of my life. And then, you know, I felt that it was a win-win situation for me, right? Like in the sense that, ego aside, I would step out because I loved marketing so much. I really wanted to learn, you know, because the business I built was actually direct-to-consumer, e-commerce, in retail, kids retail. And I just wanted to expand my understanding of marketing, digital marketing. And so this was before COVID, right? Like so this was, and these were not things that pharma was doing. Like now it's run of the mail to say digital transformation. But at that time, nobody was thinking digital transformation. You know what I mean? And so for me, the win-win was I either step out, I build something incredibly successful and huge, like I'd read about in my executive MBA case study analysis, you know, 600 square foot basement for me, some apartments for others. And I'd be, I'd be the one they talk about. Or I'd come back to pharma. Like I didn't see it as a losing proposition for me. I'd come back to pharma, even a better leader. Yep. Because I'd have I'd have that founder's mindset, that scrappy, really close to the customer. Because when you are a founder and you are in a business like the one I build, you get data quick on it.

Talking, talking about customer insights.

Yeah, exactly. Like, exactly. You get data very quick. They're either looking jumping off your ad or you know, like you get data and it humbles you quite a bit. And the journey did come with, and this is actually because I do get approached quite a bit by younger people who are interested in to your point, venturing out. And I always say, start small, don't go crazy. You don't have to quit your job. Like you really don't, right? Like I felt like I had to, because to your point, I had two young kids. I don't think I could have done this after hours. Um, but start small, proof your concept, and then scale slowly. And always, always, always. This was the big mistake, I think, for all the entrepreneurs I met who didn't succeed in that journey. Always think about what the exit strategy for you is.

And so

Building Kids E-Commerce And Hitting Ops Limits

your business was kids' clothing.

Yeah.

Is that right?

Can we just yeah, can we just appreciate the moment in time for me? Two young kids, to your point, under five, these little things outgrow their clothes in like months, months time, yeah, right? Yeah, so I would literally do like other moms and go try to clear these closets, find pieces that still had their tags on, find pieces. Oh no, it was just a monster. And like I was a working mom, it came from a real problem I was dealing with. I was a working mom. The last thing I wanted to do on my weekend was to go lug them into a car, into a shopping mall to pick them up a handful of pieces. Online shopping at the time wasn't a thing. Again, reminder, this was before COVID. And I really admired what Frank and Oak had done with the subscription box model here in Montreal. I was Montreal-based. And I thought there has to be a more sensible, more conscious way of consuming fashion for our kids. And I think I can deliver a service for moms who are like me just as busy. And so I built a business around uh capsule wardrobe boxes for children, each zero to five. And the intention there was it's a handful of pieces. You mix and match them, they outgrow them, you get yourself a new box. And quickly, when I came to market, you look, I learned from customers, kind of love the idea, but not 150% love the idea. And so the business did over the five years it lived on evolve into what customers were sharing back with me they wanted. And it wasn't so much that they didn't love the concept of conscious consumption of fashion, they wanted the opportunity to personalize their boxes, which then created a mammoth of an operations for me, which ultimately became the death of that business for me. Because as we just spoken, I love marketing. I don't love operations. And it came at a time where it was when I scaled the business and it grew exponentially that I realized, no, this is not what I envisioned. I think it's now do go back to what I said I would do and go back to pharma.

And so did did you um what did is the business still running? What did this sort of end like what did this sort of end of the business look like? And I will, I will uh uh sort of reflect back to that that uh absolutely yes, like you know, a thousand orders of a specific box is a very uh different beast than a thousand orders of custom boxes, right? Oh yeah, just operationally, like that's sort of you know, my my palm started to sweat just sort of thinking about that. Oh yeah. Um so what what what did the if you don't mind me asking, uh what did the end of the business look like? Is it still ongoing a little bit? Did you uh close it down?

I close it down, I ended up selling it not in the in the framework that I built it as, um, to someone else, to like a smaller shop that just wanted the inventory, appreciated the inventory, and then um I ended up dissolving the business actually.

Closing The Business With Humility

And and how did that like I understand that um you know you you've said curiosity a a couple times in this conversation, and and um I get the sense that um you know there was a curiosity for you around what would it be like to run this business? And and I'm gonna get exposed to all of these new and interesting things. I I always have sort of pharma to go back to, and and maybe that you know that was that was um uh you know, there's like a nice kind of safety net to that a little bit. Yeah um you know, I didn't hear uh uh, you know, sort of I I put you know the the entirety of my self-worth into this business. And if it didn't, you know, work, like I just wouldn't be able to to you know look in the mirror anymore. What was it like to go through the arc of the business and then eventually you know recognize, hey, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sort of sell these assets and I'm gonna and I'm gonna move on. Um, like what was that experience like?

You know, Neil, that's really important because you know, we're talking about this experience I had that was over five years ago. And now that you asked the question, I'll be really honest and vulnerable and say it was a very emotional journey. It sounds less emotional right now, but for certain, as a founder, you go out there and you have 200% skin in the game. You know what I mean? And during that journey, I recall so many times sitting with my husband at times where I wanted to successfully scale it and I wasn't able to. And I mean, literally, I I hustled, I hustled, I hustled, I hustled. And saying to him, When do you know you're really done? Like, when do you really know this is it? And he's like, babe, you'll know. You will know because you've done you've you've tried everything and you will come to a point where it just becomes jarring, you know? And even at that point in time for me, and I remember seeing other entrepreneurs along the way that I met, because I think in entrepreneurship, it's so lonely. And so one of the things that I did to keep myself really connected to people and humans was connect with other entrepreneurs like myself, which was so refreshing to see, by the way. There's so many others who've done what I've done. I thought I was a complete black sheep, which in some ways sounds, again, like a good idea, but to your point, it can be a little, you know, lonely and jarring. So I um kept in, I would see some of them close up shop, and I was like, oof, like I would feel it. Like I was like, oh, that's painful, you know. So when I got to that point, believe it or not, Neil, like even though having those conversations with my husband so many times, I was at peace with it, but it did take some time, even when I was back in pharma, to really put it to peace because you still you pour your heart into it, you know your customers. I knew everything. I knew, you know, so it's easy to talk about it five years later, but for sure, I would have never been able to talk about it the first year I'd gone back into pharma. I definitely put on a brave face in that it didn't work out. I was happy to be back because it didn't see it as a defeat. I really didn't, but I really saw that experience as a humility-building opportunity, which I think is not a soft skill. It's really a business skill. And I saw that experience or detour as part of my career that made everything else make more sense. I am such a different person now in pharma as a leader than I know I would have been had I not taken that detour because I just know that the customer is the primary thing we should all focus on. Do you know what I mean? And I don't need a lot of I don't need that that always how do I say this? Like I don't always need absolute qualitative, quantitative data to make those decisions. I I because you don't always have access to that in pharma, right? So um I'm really fortunate for that. And I also know now in in pharma that I just have a different lens on the whole business.

So I I'm gonna, I'm gonna I want to dig in a little bit on on kind of that that um you know, maybe perception shift a little bit or the changes that happened as you then went back in. But um I I sort of I do want to pause on on and thank you for for the you know honesty and vulnerability in your answer around shutting uh you know deciding to close the business. Um you know, I think back to what you said uh when you when you first started talking about about being an entrepreneur is that we that we romanticize this sort of the entrepreneurial journey. We romanticize being um you know being founders. And you know, it's it's it's there's like there's no there's no question that it is, it can be the most rewarding uh uh job for for sure. It is also the hardest, most unrelenting uh job that that I think anybody uh can do, like in a in a professional context. Um uh, you know, you're just you're not um, you know, there's no there's no off time when you're when you're an entrepreneur. And I think that I think the thing about being an entrepreneur is is that um it it it you define yourself differently, right? Like sort of, you know, um your job is is what you do, and being an entrepreneur is sort of who you are, I think, when you're when you're uh in in sort of startup mode. So getting out of that can be tough because it it um I I think it you know there's some sort of self-reflection that's a little bit different than if you change jobs um uh uh you know when you shut your business down. So it's I I can see it's a it's a lot there. Um so so as you went back into pharma, you've mentioned a few, and and and let's let's also sort of situate ourselves in uh you went back into a marketing role, I assume. What did you what did you go back into?

Oh,

Returning To Pharma And Leading Rare Disease

so yeah, so I thought, okay, here's the one that integrates it all, right? So I actually joined um Abbott Nutrition at the time as the senior marketing manager for Ensure the Brand, which you know may be familiar to some, but it's really a nice place where you can marry kind of that CPG to pharma, right? So I thought this is perfect. I can now quickly apply what I learned in my direct-to-consumer e-commerce business. And I did a lot for Abbott. Um, I spent a little over a year with them, but I quickly realized then that I just wanted something bigger, right? Like so it was fun to do. We did TV ads. I still see my TV ad from time to time for the product we launched, and we definitely had a good time there. But then I felt like, no, I really want to go back to um something a little bit more rigorous in science, you know, and so I jumped from Abbott to uh Merck because it was uh a pharma that I'd always admired for their science, the molecules they brought to market. And so I was fortunate in that I got to step into a role, again, to your point, Neil, as a marketer, managing actually a portfolio of products in a hospital cute care setting. And then from there worked my way up to oncology and now, more recently, into this leadership role with them, um, managing the rare disease franchise, which they'd never done before. And so I feel like this is a place right now that is really making sense for me having that founder experience in being more resourceful, more practical, and more connected to customers because it is a small base of customers in rare disease. And uh so yeah, just having a really good time.

Well, and it it it sounds like you know, you have this really kind of unique, like very unique set of characteristics, um, you know, scientific clinical background, but this this kind of you know, marketing and calms curiosity, uh uh with actual founder experience, not just you know, founder mindset, and and like a long run at running your business, right? Not a hey, I did six months and then we were like, it was it was right, like it was a yeah, yeah, yeah. You put in like it was a chapter, right? Like it was not a page. Um uh and it it sounds a little bit like the role that you're in uh uh is uh unique in how it matches up against those skills, insofar as uh you know, you're you're sort of uh a founder and and there's an entrepreneurial sense because you're kind of like you know, starting up a new business unit, and uh, you know, that likely comes with a bunch of messaging, but it's rare disease. So there's a ton of science. Like it's it's it feels like a bit of a magical match.

Yeah, I think, I think you're right. I think this third chapter, and specifically the one I'm in today at Merck, is really that really nice integration of both appreciating one, not just the discipline of pharma, but the team behind the pharmaceutical products we know, right? Like I'm, to your point, no longer as a founder of a business, operations, finance, customer service. Like I have a team, which is a power. It's a powerhouse to have that, right? Um, and at the same time, I feel that my differentiation in pharma has been that calendar experience, that ability to really uh make decisions with vagueness, right? Like I see sometimes in pharma because it's so scientific, we really want to have that those, those, those prescription data level to make the decisions. And I'm able to craft strategies with customer insights, um, with uh field insights, where it's like, let's think bigger than just your traditional uh marketing strategy. So yeah, no, it's it's been awesome. I'm really fortunate in that I'm working on kind of a game changer molecule too for Merck. Again, though, Merck always nails the science, in my opinion. Um, and nice shout out to Merck. I really I don't I really I know we always talk about that, and um it's been awesome because I don't think we've fully uncovered what we can do for this franchise. We're kind of slowly peeling the layers as we learn more, right? Because it hadn't been done before. And so one of the things that I'm really most proud of in this role is I've kind of reimagined our go-to-market model for rare disease and specifically this molecule, whereby um we've identified, going back to like being in tune with the customer, regardless of what product you're selling, we've identified that there's this system capacity constraint in our clinics that maybe we can think about partnering differently with them. And so I made the business case to our managing director to have um health system partner headcounts. These would be essentially operational in nature. They would partner with our healthcare systems and solve for things that are outside and outside our own therapy, you know? And so I'm really proud of that work because I feel like this is when we tap into true patient impact, right? And it's about true partnership with our healthcare systems. So excited to see what these guys are going to do because we're just at the very early stages of that. Uh, headcounts were made approved, we recruited for them, we're gonna be onboarding them. And so I think this is where that integration, Neil, came into place. Because I think I would have never thought of as a commercial director things outside of what your traditional marketer would have thought of, right? Like now I'm thinking go to market models. How do we pivot this based on the insights? And that speed and humility is something that I um account for from my years of trying to scale a business for five years.

So I'm thinking that I will pause and say I I love all of that. Like it's just it's uh I can I can I can hear in your voice uh how uh excited you are and also how um sort of you know with within the structure that you're in, uh it feels like there is uh appetite for doing things differently, um, which which sounds like it's a big motivator and and and and is likely gonna make a big impact you know in the market and in terms of of you know patient care, uh, which is which is exactly where you want to be. Um I'm thinking as I listen to you, um you know, I'm thinking about the marketer who's taken um, you know, maybe a more traditional direct pharma path, right? Maybe had some time in the field, comes into marketing, is moving into a uh you know, a more senior marketing role. And and um I've been doing this for a while and I've I've seen, I've interacted with with with lots of different uh with lots of different marketers. And um uh you know, there can be something that is um a little uh um myopic, I think, about about being in in you know that very, very specific track of a of a of a marketer. And I mean that only in the sense that you're not necessarily exposed to a to a ton of outside signals, right? You're not exposed to um uh you know different ideas that that maybe could never be implemented in your brand, in your category or in your industry, but that get you thinking about doing something a little bit differently. And it ends up kind of being the seed that germinates into uh something very different, but that would never exist without that seed, right? There's there's a, I think there's something about um being exposed to concept, structures, and ideas that are um, you know, very much adjacent to what you do day to day that that changes what you do day to day, right? And you've you've had that um in the sense that you've like actually physically stepped out of the uh you know, out of that track. What would you what would you recommend uh or suggest uh to folks who you know are are definitely not gonna go out and be an entrepreneur? They're they're they're maybe not gonna go out and do their executive MBA, but that, you know, would probably benefit from some uh external signals?

Expanding Your Career With Gigs

Like what, what, what recommendations or or or or advice do you maybe give to some of the marketers on your team who uh haven't had some of the same experiences that you have?

Yeah, that's a great question, Neil. Actually. Not only I would say because I do manage both the marketing side and the key account management side of things, and to your point, like a lot of my key account managers, as you were talking, I was thinking about, came from that traditional upward trajectory and are looking, you know, for that next title within commercial. And my advice has been to your point, obviously, no one and not everybody can step out into entrepreneurship, but it's actually take the time to appreciate lateral moves, right? Like I think that word lateral, I don't know why there's like a stigma around it. And I'm like, actually, let's frame it from a different different lens. Let's not think of it as a lateral. Let's look at it as expansion. Expand your perspective, right? Get an appreciation for other cross-functional team members' roles. And so, as a practical tip, what I've uh what I've shared with my key account managers is approach, you know, the the cross-functional team that you're interested in, whether it be access or policy or medical, and ask them to carve out a gig, a gig like a short-term project whereby you get exposure to that, right? Because I think it's only gonna deepen your understanding of how everybody around you uh supports you in your day-to-day field execution. And so that's one thing that not only do I encourage in my development discussions with my team is let's think cross-functional team member understanding. You know what I mean? And maybe it's to do like a side project so that you can, or maybe it's just sitting in on some of their meetings, you know, and I helped craft those for them at Merck. And I have to say, I can't take full credit here. Merck does have this incredible program. I was very impressed with it when I came in. It is a it is gigs, they post gigs. Um, and I think it gives people the opportunity, especially if you're young enough in your career, you know, to explore something without having to do what I did, which is a full commitment of, let's say, jumping from regulatory to a product manager role, right? Like so you can get a taste of it and you you see if you actually like it before you apply to be full-time on that thing. So I definitely am very much someone who encourages people to do a lot of expansion and less the more upward, you know, just for Yep.

Yeah, and I love that uh, you know, even if you even if you know a listener isn't in an organization that that has uh a formal structure, the um, you know, knocking on somebody's door and saying, hey, you know, is there a is there a project I can help with? Is there something, or can I even sit in like just to get in the room um uh uh to sort of you know see how uh see how folks operate uh kind of behind closed doors a little bit, I think is really, really insightful.

Yeah.

Um that's it, that is fantastic. And and you had talked about people's uh sort of uh expanding their perspectives. Um I really uh appreciate you sharing your perspective uh and your story uh with me and with our listeners uh today. Uh it was really uh it was really an amazing conversation and and I just I love how your current role sort of has has this full circle quality to it. Uh and it's uh it's really exciting to hear. So thank you so much for sharing your story.

Thank you, Neil, so much for having me. And if you could just allow me kind of like a closing message for those listening, because I think it's an important one because to your point, like I've had the opportunity to kind of step out, but I don't think you need to do that. I think my biggest lesson of my career so far is that reinvention does not mean starting over. Sometimes it really just means taking everything you've learned and you put it yourself in a completely different environment, whether you take on that extra project or you really do something different and you come back with a much wider lens. And so for me, entrepreneurship did that for me. It in my opinion, I feel like I'm a better marketer, I'm a better leader. And honestly, I think the most important thing for me is that I'm just a more grounded person. And I think we take that piece for granted. The importance of humility in business, the importance of cross functional collaboration and bringing that humility day in, day out, and also in listening to our customers. So um, I hope that my story has kind of given people something to reflect on. But thank you again for the opportunity.