Tony Miller, VP Creative Director, Dentsu Health, on Great Clients, the Power of Teamwork and Thriving Within Constraints.

What A Health Creative Director Does

My name is Tony Miller, Vice President, Creative Director at Densoo Health.

Tony, thank you for joining me on what is a spectacularly sunny day. I feel like the sun came out for our recording today.

It did. It's a bluebird day, as they say in the skiing world.

Yes. So I'm going to start with uh I'm going to start with some real basics, Tony. What exactly does a VP creative director at Densu Health do?

That's a great question. Um, so you know, I am in charge of the creative product that goes out of Densu Health. I'm also a copywriter, and so I do some of the writing and some of the conceptual work. Also, I work with the the teams that we have at Densu Health and uh and make sure that we're, you know, always pushing our clients to do interesting things. And and as you know, within the the health space, sometimes that can be an adaptation, sometimes it's new, completely new work, sometimes it's uh just blue sky conceptual thinking. And so it's all of it's all of that. And the other piece uh is that because Densu Health is is part of Densu Creative, uh, we get uh asked to help on pitches that Densu Creative might have or tag a sister company might have that have a you know health component to them. So we get pulled into those things as well here in Canada and the States and and other parts of the world.

Regulated Vs Wellness Work

Interesting. And so I imagine the stuff that you get pulled into that has a health component might fall more into the kind of like health and wellness category versus regulated industry.

Um yeah, that's mostly true, though. Sometimes there's a there's a pitch where it is more high science and we have we have the expertise for that. So if it's a wellness product, yes, we get brought in, not all the time, but but sometimes if it is uh if it is more complex, we definitely get brought in for that. Because you know, you can't expect everyone to know about all those rules and regulations, and we have people who know all about the Canadian regulatory world and the US and and so on and so forth. So uh that's just a it's a smart way to do business.

From Poly Sci To Advertising

For sure. Now that we have a sense of of what you're doing today, maybe take us all the way back to young Tony entering the creative workforce, or maybe not even creative workforce when you first started. Like where did all of this begin? And then maybe can you give us a bit of a greatest hits as to how you how you ended up in the very senior position that you're in now?

My dad was an advertising guy, and he had had been a creative director and uh copywriter, and so I always knew about it, and he had an agency that some of the listeners might remember called Miller Myers Bruce, which was a uh very good agency that won Agency of the Year a couple times in the 80s, um, early 90s. And so I was always aware of advertising. And when I um graduated from school with a bachelor's degree in political science and history, well, you know, the the political science factory down the road wasn't open.

So I decided I would I did have to say I do a quick, I do a quick like LinkedIn refresher before these conversations, and I was like, ah, poly sci.

Switching From Account To Copy

Boutique Years And First CD Role

Healthwise Roots And Big Brand Work

Where do we go from there? So I so I exactly, this is where you go. So I and I answered a uh an ad at the uh U of T um Career Center uh to be a media buyer at Ogilvie and Mather. And I asked my dad, you know, what do you think of media? And he said, well, see how you like it, see if you like the business. And um and so I did. And I I I worked there for a year. It was interesting. It was when Ogilvie was down on University Avenue. And as part of that, at that time, I was also doing the CAP course, and I met someone, I, you know, I should back up a bit. Oh, at Ogilvy, you know, the media department was on one floor, the account service was on another floor, and creative was on another floor. And all of those floors looked better and more interesting than where they had the media department. And um, I thought I looked at the account team and I thought, well, yeah, I could do that. That's more interesting, and they are meeting the clients, and that looks like fun. And someone at the Cap Course said that SMW was looking for uh an account executive, and I applied for that role, and I I got that. So I spent a year in media, then I was an account exec at SMW back when Michael Paul was the creative director, and uh Janet Whitney hired me, and I just ran into her not too long ago uh at an SMW reunion, and uh she hired me and I I did that and I I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it more, and I was writing something called like a company newsletter, and I really enjoyed writing. And um at the time Jim Ranscom was there, uh that matters because I'll come back to that in a sec. So I I liked it, I didn't love it, and I thought maybe it's the place, maybe if I become an account exec at a different company, that'll be more interesting. And so I took a job at um camp advertising, which then became Axe Smith McIntyre Vict, which is now agency 59, um, and was an account exec there for a year. And I really what I really wanted to do was write. I determined by that point that I wanted to um to you know put a book together and do that. And, you know, of course, my father, Eric Miller, he did encourage me to do that. And I, you know, showed my work around and I um created ads and you know, spec books just as you know, students do of the business do today. And um I was able to actually make the change from account executive to copywriter at Axmith. Uh John McIntyre was the creative director and he gave me a job as a writer. And um, it was fantastic and I really enjoyed it. And then they lost, they lost their biggest account, which was the tourism business. And so I just sort of got my start, but uh they let half the agency go. And um I showed my I knew Jim Ranscom and I showed my my work to him, and and he hired me there. And that was really as a as a copywriter, and that was really where I um, you know, was able to learn so much and do really interesting creative work. It was a boutique agency that did some great stuff. And um, I stayed there, I moved up to be an ACD there and stayed there for six or seven years, and then took a job as creative director at Sharp Blackmore Euro, which was Euro was it was part of the Havas Network, and that was my first full creative director role working with Bill Sharp and Tom Blackmore at at uh Sharp Blackmore Euro, and that was awesome and so fun and great people. We had terrific accounts, and I should add, uh, because it's relevant, that at uh Ranscom and Company, where I worked for seven years, they had a sister agency called Healthwise, um, and run by Jim and Victor Petrenko. And that mattered in the end because we did help there was a lot of people there who had a then because of that had a had a backing and a background in health advertising and healthcare advertising. So we did, we were the creative part department for both. Oh yeah. And yeah, it was it was really neat and it kept the work interesting. So I knew all about healthcare, even though my job after um after Ransom Company at Sharp Blackmore was a consumer, consumer work. And so, you know, I'll try to make this a bit shorter, but after Sharp Blackmore, where I stayed for six years, I went to ACLC and then from there and worked on Mercedes and other interesting pieces of business, Canada's Wonderland and Toshiba and Hershey and all kinds of stuff. And I was the creative director there, and then went to um a boutique uh agency uh called Smith Roberts as the as a partner and creative director with Malcolm Roberts. And I did that for a year, uh, which was great and really fun and did some terrific, interesting work. Again, consumer, and I got a call from a recruiter because Anderson DDB needed a new creative director. Their creative director who'd been there forever um was retiring, and they wanted someone who knew healthcare but didn't come from purely healthcare because Anderson had health business, but they also had consumer business and all of that. And I had a I I took that role and it was uh it was was terrific. And I was there for like I think 14 years before um I took the role here at Dentsu, uh, where I've been, it'll be three years in March. So we're we're here in March. So it's basically three years. So that's uh that's a Coles Notes or Spark Notes or wherever you want to put it.

Yeah, I think Coles Notes dates us, and Spark Notes means the like Coles Notes means half of our listeners know what we're talking about, and Spark Notes means the other half. Right. So there you go. We covered it. Two things come to mind when you when you tell me that, and I think about your early days. So this kind of like crash course in the lived experience of being in advertising, because I'm sure that you had a lot of like kitchen table experience of being in the advertising world. Um media to account exec to writing to getting packaged out because a big account got lost, which is sort of like a rite of passage in this industry.

Totally.

Did you feel after that that you had because of that, you know, both philosophically and sort of practically worked on every floor of the agency almost? And did that inform and does it continue to inform your, you know, your views? Like that, that seems like a pretty unique way to start.

Yes, and um, and it does uh inform my views. So I've walked a mile in those shoes. And um, even though media has drastically changed since then, um, account management has too, but not as drastically, I would say. No. And the fact that I was an account executive for three years um just gives me that view into their world. And, you know, that matters because you know what they're dealing with, and you know what the account group is dealing with. They're they're protecting you from certain things, they're sharing certain things with you, they they have pressures that you don't see.

And um, you know, it is you're unwittingly not sharing things that could be helpful, right? Like there's there's so many different dynamics.

Empathy From Working Every Floor

So many different dynamics. Uh, and so uh that's always served me well because I feel like I'm empathetic to what they're they're dealing with. I try at all times to be a creative adult. Um, I have no time for creative pouting and nonsense like that. Like I've seen it over the years, um, and it's just tiresome. And you know, I so because I've done been there with what they're doing, I have an extra sensitivity to that.

Yeah.

Um so it served me well.

Well, and that's something that's always struck me in our conversations is there's there's not uh uh you know, there's not a preciousness about kind of what you do. So I guess the other the other question that I had, do you recall uh and I think about this, you know, because I've got well, I've got teenagers now, and I I don't know if they're ever gonna go into advertising, but you know, they grew up with a dad who owned an agency and and there's a certain version of that that you bring home, right? Like there's one, there's only so much work you want to talk about at home, and there's um there's only so many things that you end up uh you know talking about at home. D do you recall any moments where you're in the industry and you were sort of thinking to yourself, like, my dad never told me that about this part. Like, like what was the what was the being in an agency versus being the son of an agency owner? Like, where did those things collide a bit?

Family, Perception And Early Lessons

Well, we we had my dad and I had a great relationship, and he never pushed me into advertising. He was like, Oh, if you're interested in this, I'll help you. It's not like he gave me a job or anything like that. He he suggested I show my book to Marty Myers, who was gracious and uh kind about uh, you know, whatever I showed him. And I think every creative person thinks back on their portfolio, the first one and goes, Oh god. Um, but so we didn't, we used to do my dad and I would critique ads, you know, just at home, and the ads would come on and we would sit there kibbitzing and and critiquing the work and saying, oh, that was good or that wasn't. I didn't really know. I knew that they had a great agency, but once you're in the business, you realize how hard it is to be agency of the year and how good that agency it's a moment of time, right? But how good they were at what they did. Um, my kids, none of them are in the business, uh, which is fine. And again, I didn't push them one way or the other, they just aren't in the business. My youngest, uh, when she was little, they asked the them at the daycare what your what your parents do. And she says, My dad makes adult movies. And so, and so at the daycare, the the staff were kind of looking at me funny, and they told me this story, and I had to had to tell them no. Yeah, not not as such.

Yeah, yeah.

So well, my mom that reminds me of my my mom uh has been an entrepreneur for years. She said she's had a whole bunch of retail stores, and she's had one store for 50 years. Um, it's still going. And uh her store originally sold antiques. So I spent my childhood like running around barns and auctions and whatever. And I've I've got some, and my dad works for Bell Canada, and I've got some uh like kindergarten thing where it's like, what do your parents do? And and I had written, my dad works for Belle Canada and my mom just sells antiques. And I think it's I think it's I think it's just sort of crushed my the the just part, I think, was to be cruel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um what for you in your experience makes uh makes for a great client when it comes to uh empowering or enabling the team creatively? And then also what does a great account partner look like for you and your team? So let's start with the client. Like what is it, what are the you know, what are the attributes of of a of a client who helps the team achieve their best creatively?

What Great Clients And Accounts Do

Awards, Reality And Craft

That's a great question. So the best clients are the ones that you know they've hired you to do a job and they let you do that job without too much interference. Um we understand that this is uh this is an applied art, uh not a fine art, and we're here to to sell things or move opinion um and so on and so forth. So we we all get that. Um but the clients that are you know empowering you to come up with interesting ideas and then are receptive to those ideas when you and your team come to the table with them, those are the those are the best. And we understand that sometimes despite everyone's best efforts, like something that everyone believes in can't see the light of day or doesn't. And so you appreciate it all the more when it gets through all of that, whether it's research or other approval layers or overseas head office or whatever to to allow that to come to light. And and you know, we haven't talked about this yet, but you know, I've been able to judge at a lot of shows, and it's always a pleasure and an honor. And you can see in the work that gets through and that is um that is has made it uh just how special it is and how hard it is. Because even within those shows, there's maybe three or four ads out of the hundreds that are submitted that are that really rise above. And and so you you you come to uh cherish those moments when they happen because you think when you're first starting out, I'm gonna win a million awards, and it's just gonna be a it's all gonna be like can and we're gonna be you know collecting trophies. Sure, Negroni's in the south of France, everybody. Yes, exactly. And um, I I was fortunate enough to judge at Cannes a while ago. And um my takeaway from it was oh my god, look at all this amazing work that isn't even gonna get a sniff at um a prize, and it's amazing, right? So the the craft you come to appreciate the craft, and you it is is humbling to see all of that great work, and when you you get something through and you win an award and and um you've been recognized by your peers, that's special too, because it's tough. Oh, for sure. So keep going, sorry. Well, I think the second part was uh account partners, right? That you're doing my job for me, Tony. That was gonna be, yeah. I can remember two things. That's it. I can just remember two. Um I don't want to tax you here on an afternoon. Uh and there, I mean, it's I they're not rare, but the the best one, the best account people you remember because they've got your back, because they want to do great work too. It's not just let's just get through this project, my God, and move on to the next one. They're the ones that they have a portfolio of work that they're proud of because they are a big part of that, like selling that work through, getting the and the right strategic people at the agency to come up with the strategy that has the insight that allows you to tap into something that's special and different. I mean, that's just as important. The strategy people are just as important as the account people. Yes, yes. So I it's a square.

It's a square. Strategy's in there too.

I'm gonna get I'm gonna get a whole bunch of comments from strategy people who are feel they're I appreciate them uh all because they're yes, they're I think that you're thinking of somebody specific right now, and you don't want to upset anybody at the end. I've been lucky enough to to work with some great strategy people, and then it's yeah, it's amazing when that insight is delivered to you, and you're like, oh my god, this is the this is the thing, and then the great ad comes out of it because it's such a great insight.

Well, and it's it's a way I used to say to my team, I guess I say to my team still, you know, you need to get a whole bunch of yeses from a client before they say yes to the creative idea, right? Like you know, there needs there needs to be a yes to the brief, and then there needs to be a yes to the you know the strategy, and there needs to be a yes so so that everybody is brought along that journey. Like if there's too much of a gap between yeses, then it's too much of a leap of faith that the client's gonna understand. Now, again, uh creative has to stand on its own, uh, because you know, nobody, nobody's on the subway with the strategy document being handed out to them. But you know, the stuff that's a bit more of a stretch, it's a journey, and there's a lot of there's a lot of steps in there that the client needs and and the team needs to be brought along with as well.

Creativity In Healthcare’s Evolution

Yeah, and and also let's remember that you can do some great advertising for a client and it moves the needle and everyone is very happy with it and it may not win an award. Well, and in health, you might do great work for a client and they don't want to submit it for awards. Uh 100% that happens, and or you know, no one sees it other than the specific audience that it's designed for them to see, you know. So someone might say to you at a party, what have you worked on? And then you tell them, well, it's this thing and it's a specific therapeutic category, and and they they you know, they sort of go, Oh, and then the other guy says, Yeah, I did this ad for, you know, Tom's. Do you see it on TV? And everyone goes, Oh, yeah, I saw that. So that's something you have to accept uh if you're in uh the health space that maybe your work isn't seen as much, but a lot of the time it is, and especially if it's consumer health care, they've got decent budgets and and that work can be seen, and those briefs are really interesting.

Well, I think that goes back to the kind of creativity within constraints thing. Yeah. When pharma brands stood up the Creativity Now conference, you know, I I had lots of folks who ended up presenting and being on stage at that event say, well, you know, I don't know. Um I don't know if this is creative. And and and my answer would be that you know, this isn't, you know, this isn't being judged against a movie trailer. It's being it's being presented in context to people who understand how hard it is uh you know to bring a product monograph to life. And it's in the context for the audience that I think is one really makes a lot of the work in this category shine. But it's really that's where I think some of the sort of the interesting pressure occurs on the creative process to come out the other side with something that is is really quite nuanced, right? And maybe excuse the turn of phrase, like you know, very surgical in in how it's focused.

Learning New Therapeutic Areas

Yes. And the other part of this is that creativity within healthcare has evolved over the last 25 years. Yes. But it didn't used to be quote unquote uh cool. And then what started to happen was people that weren't in the healthcare space noticed that the budgets in the healthcare space were decent, that uh you were able to do Interesting work, that the briefs were interesting. And they and then the award shows started to take notice too, by the way. And like, oh gosh, we should create a bunch of categories for this. Um, and so for me, it's endlessly interesting. And I've been working in this space for many, many years now. And um, my my colleagues and peers who've been in this space, we all we know just how fascinating it can be. And by the way, more fun than working on chocolate bars and beer. And I've worked on both of those, and let me tell you, less fun than people think. And when you're young and in the business, you think, oh, that's cool. And it can be, but often the things that you think will be the most cool are the least cool.

I think that there's a especially creatively, I think there's this sort of uh magical thinking that man, if I worked on Coke, uh, you know, I could do anything I wanted, right? Like the brand, the brand constraints on on big brands are such that uh that I remember when we used to work on on Bell and felt like Bell had more uh constraints in terms of of what we put out than some of our healthcare clients.

And and I bet they did. And and because, yeah, the brand guidelines and we can't say this, and our competition is that, and we're making money, and and we don't want to do too much because we're making a lot of money just doing what we're doing and all of that stuff. Yeah. So yeah, 100% right.

How do you like what is your process for kind of situating yourself in a new therapeutic area when you get a new brand assignment? It feels like you need to kind of inhabit that to be able to come up with creative that resonates to that really, really specific uh demographic. Do you have a bit of a process that you undergo?

It Takes A Village, Not A Genius

Well, I, you know, I definitely, like all of us in the creative department, rely on the medical writers and the strategists to help us help to help synthesize that information on that product and on that category to quickly and in a way that's cogent so that we in the creative department can go, ah, all right. I understand this now, I understand who we're talking to now, and I understand what needs to be said. And we work very closely with our, you know, the medical writers and strategists, the medical director at the agency and at other agencies I've been at to make sure that we get it and that we've they have and together we've we've cracked open what those insights are and what those pathways are that the client might want to explore. And then once that's done, you can go and start to craft message in messaging and and conceptual work that that addresses that. And and look, it if you're wrong, the client will know very quickly. Yeah, because you know, we try to say in the agency world we got to know our product better than our client knows them, but you're not really going to. You can try and you should try, but they live it every day. Remember, you know, for whatever you're doing, um, that the advertising component of what a client is doing is like five percent of their day, maybe.

Yeah.

The rest of it is all kinds of other stuff, regulatory, and all you know, legal, uh government relations, all kinds of other things that they're they're dealing with. And so when they get to you, you want to make sure that it's fun and interesting and and engaging so that they don't hate meeting with you. But it's it is to get back to your initial question, is without those insights, without those incredibly smart people on the account and strategy and medical side, uh, we're we're we're flying blind in the creative department. And so in pitches, if the if it's a highly scientific pitch, the creative is an important part of it. But it is at the end, after all of that setup has been done through the course of a of a pitch presentation, which is, you know, as you said, you know, the patient journey and and what's the regulatory landscape and what's the competition doing, and uh what are the insights and what can we say. And then here, based on that, is uh some creative thinking to show you that we can do that as well. The classic it takes a village.

Yeah, absolutely. You are able to pull in folks who can tell you or put some shape to the what and your you then bring it to life, right?

Right. I mean, the to you know be a bit facetious, but the the days of the lone creative genius wandering off into an office and coming out with a piece, something written on a piece of paper that then ends up like a madman presentation that's five minutes long. I mean, I maybe that happened, I don't know, but I've never seen it happen. And um, you know, even in the earlier days in in the the business for me, it didn't happen that way. It's a lot of hard work. And and you see you come to appreciate, like I said before, that those agencies and those creatives that can really get to some interesting stuff that makes you go, ah, I wish I'd done that.

Two Old Guys Talk About AI

So this is the part of the uh conversation that I like to call two old guys talk about AI. Oh, yeah, okay. So, so they've started up another business, another agency, another health agency, really, really committed to sort of, you know, like AI and the DNA of the of the agency, um, really unique opportunity to start an agency in late 2025 and build it up, you know, with AI versus sort of deconstruct an agency, all of these things. I I am finding, you know, you know, moments of amazement for sure. But I'm also finding that the promise of this sort of effortless AI transformation does not stand up against the practice of trying to run a very busy business, scale, hire people, you know, have people do things differently, you know, create new tools, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I have a sense of ambivalence, as well as, you know, just for our industry, a bit of a creeping terror about AI. Um where like where do you sit on that kind of AI viewpoint spectrum, especially because, you know, I think the common wisdom is writers and and creatives beware because AI is coming for you first. What's your thought about that? And maybe in general or specifically in health?

AI As Toolkit, Not Threat

Well, I I'll speak more broadly about it first. Sure. Um, the what if we looked in the in the creative department, what if we looked at AI as the Photoshop of 2026? What would you say to that? You know, because in some ways it's an it's another tool. It's not the tool, right? And if you, you know, you know, from going from people, you know, our directors like wrists, we used to call them, you know, who would just do the the write-up, you know, just a rough sketch, and that was the concept, he had a headline on it, and so on to Photoshop and then spending more and more time crafting, crafting, crafting. And then to now, where there's these AI is based on, in many cases, um, the prompt writing and how good that prompt writing is, and so on. That is it's a part of the toolkit that we have. And for art directors, I'd say that it is a more useful than it is for copywriters, and maybe people will come at me for that. I don't know. But I I find that some art directors are able to use it really well. They're better prompt writers and they and they've taken a couple of courses and they're able to get there. But it does, it does depend, Neil, on on what the client is asking for. Because we had, I'm not gonna name the client, but we had a an art director or designer spend hours and hours writing prompts to try to get something. I had to write a hundred prompts to get something that was close to what the client wanted. Whereas if we just gone to Photoshop and retouching, it would have been done in half the time. So, yes, AI is getting more sophisticated than that. Maybe it would be 50 prompts or 25 prompt, but it's all of that is it's working its way through the system. It doesn't think, yeah. So it doesn't come up with ideas. And so remember that it's like someone said it's like cows eating cows. So you've got to be really careful about what you what you use it for, right? You've still got to come up with the idea. It's again, it's part of your part of your toolkit. Writing for writers, writing's a muscle, man. And if you don't write, you forget how to write. And so if you're using, if you're a writer, a copywriter using AI to write your whatever, your your script or your or 10 more headlines like this, just be careful because you're gonna forget how to write. And it's just borrowing on other stuff that's already been done. So I look at it like it's an amazing thing. You can create, you know, animated spots or or pretty realistic looking spots uh using purely AI, but but uh at the end of the day, people can still tell it's AI. So where does that put us?

Yeah. And and look, like I'm I'm I am not, I don't think anybody has has ever pointed to me and said, man, that's the most innovative guy out there. So I'm I'm I am sure there are it's the classic two-person AI, wonder, creative shop. I don't know if they're working in our industry with our regulations and our nuances and our scrutiny. Yeah, and and and I I think the change will be incremental. The the thing that I've seen is that is not necessarily from a client standpoint, hey, you know, we want this thing that used to be 10 grand, right? Make up a number.

Right, yeah.

Um we want this thing for two grand.

Right.

What I've what I've seen is like, I'd like this thing for 10 grand to potentially be what I what I wouldn't have ever been able to get for 10 grand.

Right.

Budgets, Outputs And Guardrails

Because you can do different things. Like we just did a like an NSM sort of sizzle reel video kind of thing, you know, that had an opening sequence that we never would have been able to do for the budget because it was a bunch of AI uh stuff. And again, you know it's AI. Like we're not, I did rent a helicopter, but for the purposes, it delivered much more for the same. And that's amazing. Now, I do think there's other sides where it's like, why are we paying X for ban rads and all that kind of stuff? But I just I find it an interesting when we're thinking about, especially NetNew Creative and and where you sit in the organization.

Right. I I don't see it as a as a threat at all. I see it as another tool. And I I think, you know, also remember that every agency or every network has very specific and evolving rules around the use of AI. Yeah. Um, and how, you know, if it's for a pitch, that's one thing. If it's for a client presentation for conceptual work, that's another thing. If it's like do my ad in AI, that is different. And there's very specific guidelines around that. I'll also mention, because it's healthcare related, that I was at a PAB conference and they had said I was at one of them, and they were like, we're gonna use AI and it's gonna be amazing, and you just watch. And then six months later at the next conference, they were like, actually, we're taking a step back because what was happening was the AI tools were making up references that didn't exist. Yeah. And that's how everyone ends up in jail. So they, you know, right? So uh my one of my you've been around long enough, one of my things is that agencies always over-index on every new trend and then dial back to where the reality is. Yeah, you know, that's this isn't this isn't very different from that, even though it's incredible and and awe-inspiring.

Practical AI In Regulated Spaces

I had a conversation with somebody recently who mentioned that sort of someone they knew in the industry listened to this podcast because they were early in their career and there wasn't a ton of content for them to access about being there in an agency, about being kind of a younger person in an agency, kind of starting their career out, which was fantastic. I I love that. Yeah. So thinking about that audience, what advice do you give to newer folks in the agency? So either maybe newer account folks, creative strategy, like what advice do you feel that is helpful for someone who's getting started in this wonderful, complicated, exciting space that we work in?

Well, I'd say a couple things. One thing is that you know, a bad day in advertising is better than a good day in a lot of other businesses. And um, I think that holds true. Um, I would say work on as many different products as you can um, you know, over the first 10 years of your career. You don't want to be known as you know, pigeonholed in one vertical or another. And as well, you want to find someone uh who can help mentor you so that you can learn from. You know, I was very fortunate early in my career to have a few different super smart people that I could learn from and watch and see how they did business, how they interacted with clients, how they presented to clients, how they played in the sandbox. Um, and also at the same time, keep your eyes open to the people that don't do that well and go, I don't want to be that person.

Yeah.

Advice For Early-Career Talent

Um, and so that's really, really important. It's one of the reasons, you know, early on in my career when I was just, you know, trying to become a writer, I I uh showed my portfolio to Tom Gowdy. He ended up being a pirate and he's had an amazing career and is a brilliant guy, a writer. And he said, I'll help you as long as you promise to help everybody else that comes along after you get your job. And I've never forgotten that. And that's why I taught a course, that's why I I you know help young, do my best to help young people. Not only is it good karma, but um you would hope that you would get help when you need it just because it's a good thing to do. And so surround yourself with, you know, at this stage of my career, I'm like, I want to work with young people, I want to work with older people, I want to be around nice, smart, kind people who want to do really good work. And that and that should be what you try to do all the way around your career. And if you find to a young, young person, if you find yourself in an agency where that isn't happening, or those people aren't there, or there's a bit of toxicity, then you should leave and find another place where you where it's it's it's better. Because boy, it can be a fun business, but it's only advertising. And you know, it's a lot of time to spend unhappy if you're not happy at a place. You should try to find seek out those people who are like minded and want to do good work.

That's a that's a great piece of advice. Uh Tony, thank you so much. Um, this the time flew by. Yeah, it was fun. Really, really enjoyed you joining us uh today and always love our chats.

Yeah, thank you, Neil. I really appreciate it.