Lisa Petermann, Chief Patient Experience Officer at Roche Canada

Welcome And What’s Ahead

Welcome back to the Farmer Brands Podcast. My name is Jonathan Guillem, co-founder of Farmer Brands, and for the next few episodes, I'll have the pleasure of speaking with the leaders from across the industry. This week I'm joined by Lisa Peterman, Chief Patient Experience Officer Roche Canada. A conversation about what meaningful patient partnerships really look like inside Pharma and ways to positively influence to ensure that the patient voice is truly embedded across the whole business. We also get into AMA. How patients and HCPs are using it and why farm needs to spend a little less time looking at internal adoption and a little more time understanding what's going on in the outside world. Unexpectedly, we also talk about science fiction. Lisa is writing her own sci-fi novel inspired by AMA, her own travel, and some recent very vivid dreams. But the big news is, as a result of this podcast, I may now have a character named after me in her next book. It's a really, really inspiring conversation with the leader who's helping to make sure that the patient voice genuinely becomes part of the whole business. If you enjoy this episode, please don't forget to like and subscribe. Enjoy.

Sci-Fi Writing From Vivid Travel Dreams

Lisa, good morning, and a very early morning for you. 7:30am your time, um, just after lunch mine. So I appreciate the early start and accommodating to our hours. Before we get into the great role and the work and things you're doing, I thought we could do a bit of an icebreaker. Uh, and you get these at the conferences where people stand up and clap and do something fun. Could you share something with uh with with me and I guess our listeners, an interesting, I guess, personal or professional fact or hobby that no one else, I guess, would know about you?

Yeah, so I've recently started writing science fiction narratives.

Amazing.

And so my current one integrates, you know, AI, uh, what's that is doing in our environment, all of my travels. Um so yeah, it's uh an exciting new pastime for me.

What led to you starting that as a hobby or as an initiative?

So I was traveling a lot for work, and I have uh uncanny ability to fall asleep before the wheels are off the ground on a runway. And I was doing a lot of dreaming. And so I would wake up from these sort of really vivid dreams and just start sketching out the story. And then when I was awake, I'd come back and I'd read what I wrote and chip away at it a little bit more. So it just became a little bit of a travel hobby.

Amazing. I well, I look forward to the first edition, and maybe that can be a follow-on podcast where we we go into that completely separate from your your day-to-day work.

I'll name the character after you, John. There you go.

My dad has got my kids are gonna love that. I'm literally becoming more famous by the second. And I'm a little bit you're the person on the plane that I envy terribly because I'm the opposite. I'm the guy that can never sleep, no matter what I take or exercise I do before. I'm wide awake from the minute I sit on a plane to the minute I get home. I envy people that can close their eyes and nod off at any given moment.

There's something about the resonance that the airplane vibrates at, because I don't even need it to be moving. Like when I sit down, I sometimes I don't even see the end of boarding, John.

Like you're showing off now. Okay.

You're welcome.

So let's, if we can, can we take a huge, you know, switching gears to to a work setting, take a huge leap back to where it all began.

From Patient To Cancer Prevention Work

And really interested to learn about your current role and and experiences there. But yeah, where did I guess the healthcare journey or the healthcare career begin for you?

I mean, I think it begins when you become a patient, right? And um when I was growing up, I was an elite-level swimmer and I destroyed my rotator cuff through overtraining. And so at that point I made a decision that I was going to become a surgeon because I wanted to help people who were in similar situations to me. And so I went into kinesiology at university and promptly decided that I didn't enjoy any of the coursework required to be a surgeon.

Small problem.

Small, small problem. Still wanted to help people. Um, and in my final year of my undergrad, I took all my electives, which were things like creative writing and the history of rock and roll and African-American emancipation literature, and all those have in common are the stories about people and where people come from, how people interpret the world around them. And one of the courses I took was medical history. And so, fast forward, you know, that's what I did my doctorate in, but um, you know, at some point along the way, I realized that I actually really love working directly with people. And, you know, being an academic wasn't going to give me that experience the way I was looking for it. And I was wrapping up my PhD, and there was a job offer at the Canadian Cancer Society that came through to help coordinate a five-year cancer prevention strategy. And about four years earlier, I'd lost my mom to cancer, and I thought, yeah, this is a really good cross-section of what I want to do with my life. I want to help people, I want to give people more time with the people they love because I didn't get that. And um, yeah, I dedicated the next almost 10 years of my career to working in the oncology space.

Cancer prevention, I mean, that's a huge area. I can't begin to imagine the challenges and that you were faced with and that you overcome. But what were kind of the top three, if if it could be summarized into three, but the big things that you're able to see and change within that experience?

So cancer prevention is a team sport, and so it's a combination of really good research, figuring out behavioral drivers for people. It's a policy um, you know, arena where you have to then take that research and shift public policy so that it creates conditions for people to thrive. Uh, and then, you know, ultimately, I guess the third one would be um around translating knowledge to people individually, right? So research is only good as its application. Um, and so I'd say those are probably the three that really stood out. And when I moved here, so I lived in Calgary, but for my current job, I moved to Toronto, um, and I was driving around and there was a report on the radio from the American Cancer Society, and it said over the last 20 years, 4.2 million more people now survive cancer every year than they did when I got started. Amazing. And so professionally, that's probably playing a very, very, very small part in helping achieve that number really closes the loop for me on what I wanted to do when I went into that field.

Switching gears quickly, we've we're touching on kind of professional achievements there, but in in the scene of kind of painting the picture of Lisa, what are you most proud of personally? Uh, you mentioned right at the beginning that you're a professional swimmer until you had a career-ending injury, sadly. Um but yeah, is there a personal achievement that's not on par, but it's something you're equally as proud of?

You know, I I've been to nearly 60 countries, and that sense of adventure and curiosity, I think, is probably what I'm most proud of. And that in a couple weeks I'm off to do a bucketless trip to the South Pacific and scuba diving, and you know, continuing on that sense of adventure even as you get older and experiencing the different cultures and the different stories that are out there in the world is something I'm I'm still really proud of.

I love it. I literally had a conversation with my nine-year-old and six-year-old yesterday. It it came on the radio of the lottery you can win a million pounds a week or something like that. And we went down this road of if you had a million pounds, what would you do? And within a minute, it was all the places in the world they wanted to see. And it was beautiful to hear, you know, through a six and nine-year-old of things they'd read. And like Henry wanted wants to see a kangaroo um in Australia. But interestingly, he then asked, he wants to see a kangaroo have a fight with another kangaroo. So I'm I'm a big fan. And we end actually ended up netting out when we got home, and I said to my wife, we're gonna sell the house and go traveling for a year now, and we're gonna go back to being nomads and work remotely. So I share your your your passion for travel.

And what an experience to give a six and nine-year-old, John, right? That exposure to the world around them and different lenses, different perspectives. Um, you know, it it will it will change how they experience the world as adults.

1000%. I think you know, structured education, uh safe home environment are critical to a child's kind of well-being and growth. With that said, throwing them up the side of a mountain, not literally throwing them conscious this is going out live, but doing all those, doing all those things that make them feel um those different smells, different people, cultures, foods. Um, yeah, before schooling and everything becomes too serious, so to speak. So if I'm calling you from the back end of Thailand next time, you know that I'll have my family with me. That's the plan.

Fantastic. And I've got recommendations if you do end up in that part of the world. So do give me a call before you head over.

100%.

What A Chief Patient Experience Officer Does

Switching back to where you are today and the new role that you have. And remind me, how long have you been in the role where you are at the moment? It's relatively new, is that correct?

Yeah, it's been nearly two years since I took the role now.

In a line, in a sentence, what does a chief patient experience officer do in a pharma company?

Uh amplify the voices of people with lived experience across the whole business.

And then kind of the follow-on, what attracted you to the role and this particular opportunity from what you were doing previously?

So my role is unique, John, in the whole pharmaceutical industry. It basically requires you to have a minimum of 10 years of lived experience as a patient or caregiver to hold that role. And so I see this position as the greatest honor of my career. Um, and being able to create space for the voices of other patients to be brought in at the manufacturing level is a phenomenal opportunity because then the impact that you can have in making sure that uh all of the resources that are designed or the programs that we build are directly relevant to the people who are benefiting from them, that's a pretty, a pretty special moment. And that level of reach and that level of impact uh is not possible in any of the other sectors I've worked in in my career.

And from the previous roles you've had, are there key things or key experiences that have really helped you out in this role from what you've previously done? I mean you spoke about influencing government policy, making sure researchers apply, but are there key lessons or key things that have helped you thrive over the last couple of years?

You know, I think I read more in my first year working at Roche than I did for my PhD. So that ability to digest vast amounts of information very quickly from my academic space has been really useful. Uh, I went on and I worked a long time in the not-for-profit space. Uh, and there you learn the importance of networking, um, the ability to do something on almost absolutely zero budget. Um, you know, working in government, I understood the importance of structure, regulation, processes. And so I think this role is sort of a culmination of the three spaces that I've worked in prior to coming here, because you need all of that to be successful working in pharma.

100%. I I guess you also had correct me if I'm wrong, I'm slightly cheeky here. The introduction of AI must have been brilliant in the mass review of content literature, because that's been a thing for about two, three years. So have you got a I know we didn't prep around AI tools and but it's almost been 10 minutes and we've not spoken about AI. So is there a favorite AI tool that you've you've been that's helped you on this journey? And it's absolutely fine to say, John, none of your business, because we know in in the life sciences, shadow AI can be a thing as well.

So um I'm gonna lean in on my Leadite status. And and you know, when I first started uh at Roche, I I did it the old-fashioned way. And then, you know, Gemini came online um about like as a corporate tool for us, uh, you know, about a year ago for all the affiliates. I'm sure there were early adopters across the organization, but uh remember my PhD is in the past, and so this is a new learning area and a new skill for me. So um I'm working through adopting it and and trusting what I get from it. Um good luck.

I we won't go into AI. I've so many mixed views and and notions from yeah, we'll put a pin in that one for another day. So

Making Patient Engagement Everyone’s Accountability

the patient space and and patient centricity is has been around it's it's the industry in which we live. But it's a lot of the time it doesn't always get the support or the resources and the opportunity to create change as other areas within the business, say marketing, sales, or or other departments. From your view of kind of the outside in and not you know in your current role specific, but broadly, where do you see, I guess, the biggest opportunities for life science companies to improve their patient-centric approach is probably the simplest way to put it.

Yeah. Um, I know you said not necessarily in my current role, but there was a decision, a philosophical choice that we made at Roche Canada that patient engagement is everyone's accountability. And so traditional models have a dedicated team and that's what they focus on. Um, and so that makes it really uh difficult at times, especially if senior leaders are not seeing the same intrinsic value in that team as they do in traditional teams like marketing or the commercial field teams. And so basically we look at having everybody shift their work to ask the question, how do I engage patients in this space? So, what does that look like from a marketing perspective? And you have patient activation is the new horizon in our field, right? Making sure that individuals have the knowledge, skills, and confidence to navigate their own health journey and what is our role in that? And that's a direct crossover with marketing. So you know, at Roche Canada, um, I don't have a team, but there are, you know, nearly 2,000 people who share the accountability for engaging with patients. And so in that regard, it's making sure that the why is very clear. Why do we do this? Um, how does this impact the goals that people have in their respective teams? And those goals are different in every team. So it's about tailoring that approach. Um, and it works, it actually works really well. And then what'll happen eventually is you know, you'll need a small team that can help catalyze new areas. So that crossover into how are we using AI? What does that look like from the patient space? Or, you know, how are we moving from insights to true action? Right. So there need to be sort of catalysts who have deep centers of knowledge in some of those spaces, um, but really keeping that distributed leadership for patient engagement across the organization that it sits with everyone.

That's amazing. So, does that reflect in people's actual kind of goals and scorecards on a on a level? Because obviously, the on sales and marketing, it's relatively straightforward to measure impact and success in what they're doing. Um, and there are so many measures of value and outcomes in the patient space, and and for good reason. Like it how does that translate, I guess, in practical terms for those? I think you mentioned 2,000 people across the organization. So they are thinking about in their kind of you know, their quarterly goals or their annual reviews.

Yeah, the easiest bridge to build is through customer experience. And so, you know, if you're working in our operational excellence team, for example, your goal might be to ensure that all patient-facing forms and communication is easily digestible and available in the language of choice for people, right? And so their goal would be operationally focused. You know, if you're a senior leader, our goal is to ensure all Canadians have access to the medicine they need when they need it. And so, you know, measuring that through the reach of our portfolio, maybe the goal that the senior leader has. So it's possible in every space to look at what your function does, how that can impact the work with patients both as partners and as recipients of care, and then tailor your goals directly to that.

Makes perfect sense. You you mentioned before around patient activation and with my kind of UK lens on patient activation measure is you know, is an established framework. There's and there's lots of great measures from EQ5s within mental health, well-being. Are are these kind of measures and metrics within your kind of immediate role and some of the projects you're looking at that are touching patients where you're measuring value, are they surfacing up? Or do you do you have the equivalent of PAM scores and things that you work with with inside the organization and partners?

I mean, EQ5D is an internationally validated tool that I think transcends the European context, but it's really looking at ability of daily living in that one, right? And how you're benefiting from the care that you're receiving as opposed to assessing your level of disease awareness and how to navigate living with the condition that you have. And so EQ5D, for example, wouldn't be fit for purpose in that activated space, but there are some measures that are. And we've just spent the last sort of five months working pan industry to try and really figure out how can we measure this in a meaningful and compliant way so that we understand if our efforts are making an impact for patients and helping them navigate that journey. But it's measurement in industry for patient activation is a relatively new discipline. And much of industry level measurement happens way upstream in the RD space and the clinical trial space. And I think that's because research has been farther along in engaging patients than the upstream commercial aspects have.

There must be a lot of space to f a lot of opportunity, a lot of space to fill that you can see from that lens coming into it of things that could be put into place, I guess, coming into the role and how people are operating.

Have you ever

Feeling Alone And Finding Community

seen the Matt Damon movie The Martian?

I'm gonna say, I think so. Carry on, and uh it will come to me.

It doesn't so he's stranded on Mars, right? And he's the only one there, and um, you know, he got left behind in in an incident. Yeah, yeah, that one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love that film. Yeah.

And so there's a moment in that, John, where he says, you know, everywhere we go or I go, um, you know, I'm the first one here. And sometimes for patient engagement professionals in industry in their companies, that can be a hundred percent true, right? So you're trying to figure out how do we bring patients in as partners. There's a very real possibility that may be the first time a company is pursuing that. And so um groups like the International Society for Patient Engagement Professionals and the Industry Group, um, which is called PEPS, they're really recognizing how alone you can feel in a patient engagement function, and they're creating spaces for patient engagement professionals to come together. And so, yes, there are tons of opportunities, and like surviving on Mars, sometimes it can be daunting about how do I figure this out and how do I go about this? And it's beautiful to see a global community start to come together under those two umbrellas to really figure some of that stuff out and to to borrow with pride, right? So we don't need to continuously reinvent the wheel, we need to collaborate and share broadly because at the end of the day, the reason we do all of this is so that people get more time with the people they love.

Absolutely. I think of Matt Damon and a build, I also saw a film yesterday called We Brought a Zoo with Matt Damon, which I've never seen before. It's a lovely family film, but there's a line in it that he kind of his mantra for life is you know, 20 seconds of bravery um can change your life forever. So it's it's about those small moments of stepping up for that things you'd otherwise walk away from or be anxious or worried about to create meaningful change. And I thought the film's great fun, but that was quite a meaningful message and profound point that I took from the film, actually. And I was reflecting later that night of moments where you don't step up or push. Because you don't have that bravery within those, you know, and you only need 20 seconds to create big change.

I think that's so beautiful. And it aligns so well. You know, October 15th is World Patient Engagement Day. And so we've been working with our patient partners to say, how should we show up on that day? And how do you want to show up as a patient partner? And one of the patient partners we talked to created a sort of tagline that resonated with her. And she said, small steps, big impact. And that sort of really came to me when you were talking about seeing that movie. And courage is at the root of all of this. It is hard to do something new. And I am incredibly proud to work at Roche Canada where they had the courage to create a never-before position in industry and see how it went.

Absolutely. And it's two years on. So you're obviously doing something right. Like it's still going stuff.

Career Advice For Influence Without Authority

We're speaking a little bit about careers and leadership. I would love if it's okay for us to switch gears. And I'd love to get your take in three areas of people coming into this space. And by that I mean the patient experience within life science. So starting out early in their career, advice you'd have for them. And then talk a little bit about people in their careers, so kind of mid-level aspiring to the leadership role you're at. And then for other leaders, um, like recommendations to them. So kind of the three stages, if you will, of the career. So for people coming into this, you know, fresh out of uni or doing work experience in an area, like what advice would you give them or advice that you wish you'd had earlier on in your career that may have made things smoother or accelerated some of the opportunities you later achieved?

Well, I'll give you the advice I got very early in my career because it still resonates with me. And that's there is no destination, right? So there is only the journey. And so if you love what you do today, tomorrow will take care of itself, right? And uh when I was going through the early stages of my training and my career, that wasn't the prevailing belief, right? Like you set a target. And I grew up in rural Newfoundland, right? So, you know, it was become a teacher, a doctor, a lawyer, the standard sort of um professions that that you think about, right? It certainly wasn't become the chief patient experience officer at a pharmaceutical company. So, you know, I think we miss a lot by predetermining there's an end place that we're going to end up. Yeah. And if you do what you love every single day, wherever you end up, you can look back at a career you'll be really, really proud of.

It's so true. And on the whole, we forget to be present in what we do because we're very forward-focused as a species, but that that's very true. I love that. So people in industry at the moment working away on projects, delivering the goods, so to speak, and we touched on this before around influence. I would love your take on what advice you'd have for them where they need to generate more influence or get more people on board around patient-focused or patient-centric projects they're working on from colleagues and peers. They don't necessarily have the authority, you know, or the budgets to pull the big levers.

Yeah, I think that's an incredibly important skill for anyone really um working in this space. So the first is do not underestimate the importance of building a connection to people's why. Not the collective why of the organization, but the individual reason people chose to work in healthcare. And what you will find is people have family members, uh, they have loved ones, friends that have had a health experience often. Um, and that may have been a driving feature for them. And if your role is to bring patients into the business as partners so that things are more relevant, just being really explicit about the benefit of what you're asking to patients. And then people can connect it with their personal values and their intrinsic why. The other um sort of piece of advice I would say is, you know, in in professionally and particularly when everyone is busy, right? Everyone is doing something incredibly important, and you're like, please do something else, right?

Stop what you're doing today. I need something doing.

Or worse, keep doing what you're doing and do what I need you to do, right?

And and yeah.

You know, we're we're not really good at stopping things. But I sort of see that you can't make withdrawals from an account without making deposits. So, what are some ways that you can contribute to the goals or the work or the burden that that person is carrying? And we know that many hands make light work. And so contributing in a meaningful way begins to build an organic relationship where people then see that, you know, there's benefit to both parties of working together and collaborating and doing those things. And if you can figure that bit out, the people that really benefit are the people living with the conditions that we're caring for.

100%. And last question within is I guess for your peers, you know, people at the C-suite leadership within companies. You you you mentioned at the beginning around the patient voice being present in all of those conversations, but are there other capabilities or skills that you think are increasingly important at a leadership level with inside organizations? And we've almost gone another 10 minutes without talking about AI. So maybe that could weave in in addition to the work you're doing in the patient space.

You know,

Courageous Leadership Plus AI In Care

I'm gonna go back to your movie reference. I think leaders need to be brave, Jonathan, right? There patients generate fear in this in, you know, industry spaces, I would argue. And it's because it's a fear of an unknown, right? And traditionally, we like to have things that are complete and then we can show how good they are. And working in partnership with patients requires things to be messy and unfinished because it's only by working together to complete that project have you actually achieved partnership. And that actually requires a very high degree of courage to do things differently and in an innovative manner. And to honor your request about AI, right? Um not my natural disposition, sir, but you are a thousand percent correct, right? So, you know, we see AI being used in the patient community very, very um innovatively. And if you think about your encounter with the doctor, at best you have 10 minutes, right? And right now, about eight minutes of that will go towards history taking. Tell me about your symptomology over the past 10 months, how has that changed, et cetera, et cetera. And then the final two minutes will be okay, here's our action plan. AI allows you to innovatively track those um symptoms so you can reverse that. So instead of having eight minutes of history taking, you have two minutes of history taking and eight minutes of action planning. And the AI may have already helped you think about the questions you want to be able to ask your healthcare provider, right? So senior leaders need to understand how patients and healthcare providers are utilizing AI to shift that dynamic and to be a meaningful player in building again that knowledge, skill, and confidence for those parties to navigate their health journeys successfully.

I couldn't agree more. And we we had an event in Zurich, I would say late last year. And one of the key messages from one of the speakers was we're very focused on adopting AI to innovate internally, to make processes, people better, sharper, more compliant, all that stuff. Whilst we're doing that, we're missing what's going on in hospitals, with doctors, with patient adoption. And we need to focus a lot more on the latter and less on the internal element, which is arguably needed, but easier, you know, things we understand and know and can control. So I completely agree with everything you you've shared, and it's a shared view by some other leaders in the space as well, which is great.

Well, validating. So thank you for that, John.

We have two. We have an end of two.

So well, it must be a trend then. It is. Well, and you know, within the internal space, you have the resources through your, you know, IT teams, your innovation and technology teams, you know, to work on and in some ways control the speed of adoption in that space, right? So not not surprising that's where it started. Um, but again, go back to that courage to wade beyond beyond the borders and really lean in and understand what patients need next and how are you going to deliver that? How are you going to show up as a trusted partner on those people's care journeys to make life just a little bit easier, dealing with what is arguably, you know, the most difficult or or worst chapters that those people are going to experience?

Beyond Stories Toward True Partnership

So looking ahead, what would you be most proud of you know the big project or the thing that's changed, the thing that you've achieved on the work that you're doing? So the like the one thing it's like that moved from there to there. And you mentioned about the oncology stats at the beginning. Um, yeah, do you have a sense of what that could look like in in a year's time, acknowledging, you know, don't focus too much on the end state, enjoy the present as well. But yeah, an end goal.

Oh um I'm I'm pausing because we have so much on the go right now, and I'm trying to think it'll all be implemented over the next year. You know, maybe what I would love to see is one other company create my position, like to really lean into the expertise that patients have. And, you know, very often industry will have people come and can you tell us your story? And I have a colleague that calls that the hug a patient moment, right? Where it's please, in front of a group of strangers, relive the worst and most vulnerable moment of your life so that, you know, we all feel good about the work that we're doing. And, you know, that that's a fair place to start because it helps people connect with the why. But that is that is very much a baby step on that, on that step of partnership. And so if another company were to create a chief patient experience officer role requiring lived experience, I think that would be that would be a phenomenal milestone.

We will have that as a call out when we work on the framing of this session. Um, that could be one of the um action items for viewers and listeners. So I love that. I love that as a goal.

When I could have been quite cheeky and said, well, I'd like to launch my first book with you, John. But you know, I don't I don't think that's what you were looking for.

So Well, you say that, and in fact, 100% the first science fiction book launched through Pharma Brands, unless it's another professional focused book, but I'm there, and we we could find a local coffee shop, you know, do the do the chapter reading, um, which would be great fun. I'm there. So you when you need the PR partners, give us a call. Well, see another book up.

All that came because I made a character for you, right? So, you know, years, years from now, when we're having the book launch, we'll we'll know where this started.

And you've said it twice now. I thought you were being polite at the beginning and and just being kind, but you've said it twice and it's definitely gonna be in there. Lisa,

Quick-Fire Words And A Life Compass

I'm gonna wrap up something a bit different we've not done before. Um, for our regular listeners, they'll realize that I'm not Neil Follett and I don't have a Canadian accent. But something I thought would be fun at the end is a quick fire series of words. And for you just to react and say a word or a couple of words that come straight off of it to close out. Are you up for that? Sure. First word or few words that comes into mind after I after I say mind AI. Complexity, patient data, important, behavioral science, underappreciated, trust, paramount, social media, overused, pharma, innovative, the future.

Right.

Love it. I think you mentioned it at the beginning, and I'd love a final kind of a closing question if I can. Is there one person idea or experience that has most influence how you think about patients or or people that are living with conditions and and health challenges throughout your career, throughout your life? Yeah, one experience or person. And I did I think you touched on it in the beginning, but I wanted to re-ask it at the end.

So right before my mum passed, she said two things to me um that have stayed with me um for the last you know 25 years. She said, Don't wait to live your life, hence the 60 countries and the travel and journey. But she said, leave the world a better place than you found it. And so my whole career um I've made choices where the work that I do can make a real difference for people in the health space in particular. And so I'd have to anchor it. Um, the most influential moment was probably that.

Amazing. Lisa, that was a brilliant close to a brilliant conversation. Thank you so much.

It was lovely to be here, John.

Thanks, Events, And How To Get Involved

Thank you for listening, and if you enjoyed that episode, please don't forget to like and subscribe. The Pharma Brands team has just got back from a brilliant event in Philadelphia. I just want to take a second to say a huge thank you to our partner Real Chemistry for supporting that event and making it a reality, and of course to the expert speakers for sharing brilliant case studies and insights. Next up, we're heading to Toronto for a excellent event at the beginning of November. Then to London for Women in LA, and then we'll be finishing the year in Zurich, where we'll be looking at ahead of trends and challenges shaping former marketing in 2027. We're also now recruiting speakers and partners for a flagship HMA event. So if you've got a story worth sharing, a project people can learn from more, or you'd like to partner with us. Let more is a great time to get involved. Head on over to formerbrands.ca to learn more and get in touch. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you on the next episode.