Sophie Deschênes, Head of Marketing, CSL Vifor & President of Women Leaders in Pharma, on Support, Mentorship and Being a Complete Person at Work.

[00:00:03] Welcome to the PharmaBrands Podcast. I'm your host, Neil Follett and I have to say I really love doing this show. The fact that I get to sit and chat with interesting people and learn a whole bunch along the way, it is really one of the best parts of my week. And the very best part of this week was talking to Sophie Deschênes for today's episode. Sophie personifies what I have seen so often in the pharma marketing community, not just a passion and commitment to the work that she does, but a passion for and commitment to

[00:00:33] the people she does that work with. And as you'll hear, for Sophie, work comes in many forms. Before we get started, a quick thanks to NFA Health for helping to make this show possible. And now, on with the show. Sophie, thanks for joining us today.

[00:00:54] Yes.

[00:00:55] Let's start with a little bit of you. Give me a sense of where you've been in your career. You've had some interesting roles and you've been doing this for a little while. Give us a sense of what that career arc looks like.

[00:01:05] Sure. So I've spent my entire career in the pharmaceutical industry and that was a little bit not my plan. You know, when I graduated with a marketing degree and I did an MBA also in marketing because I've always been passionate about marketing and advertising and thought that's where I would go.

[00:01:23] But when I graduated, I somehow ended up interviewing for pharmaceutical sales jobs accidentally, like through friends. And I was also at that time interviewing with ad agencies and actually the same day I was offered both jobs.

[00:01:40] And I remember being really torn because my heart was in marketing and advertising. But, you know, the concept of joining this large world of, you know, pharma and the path that it might take me down and not to mention the salary, which at that point I needed.

[00:01:59] The compensation isn't so bad either.

[00:02:02] Oh, my God. I really did need that graduating with, you know, a master's degree and student loans and all that.

[00:02:07] And so I just took a leap of faith and jumped in with both feet and found myself, you know, selling very interesting medications in front of physicians.

[00:02:19] It was a completely foreign world to me, but I loved it because I I recognized that I was able to help people.

[00:02:27] I mean, we call them patients, but they're people. Right.

[00:02:30] So I realized that I was becoming an expert in different areas and able to really make an impact.

[00:02:37] And and then one thing led to another naturally ended up gravitating towards a marketing path.

[00:02:43] Thankfully, it was all there for me. And I spent 12 years at Lilly in various roles in marketing and sales management.

[00:02:49] And I spent some time as a Six Sigma Black Belt, which was a different thing that Eli Lilly was doing at the time, which which essentially made me kind of like a data heavy project manager for two years.

[00:03:02] But I got to work across all kinds of functions and learned so much.

[00:03:06] So it went from there. I left Lilly.

[00:03:08] I joined a small company called Indivior where the therapeutic area was opioid addiction.

[00:03:15] Now, if you're looking like for something to become passionate about, I would say look into this whole field.

[00:03:23] It's fascinating and severely under underserved.

[00:03:28] So I spent eight years there as the head of marketing and it was a small team that grew quickly and really helped to make a difference in the lives of people where, you know, no one else was paying attention.

[00:03:39] And so so that eventually it was time for change.

[00:03:42] And now here I am with CSL, which is fairly, fairly recent, right?

[00:03:47] Yes. I joined CSL just in the summertime, late spring.

[00:03:53] CSL v4 Canada is a brand new business unit or division of CSL.

[00:03:59] It is well-established around the world, but had not yet had a presence in Canada.

[00:04:05] We're actually the 87th country to launch, which is very unusual for Canada.

[00:04:11] But it was a great opportunity to jump in and build a whole team.

[00:04:16] So Marie-Eve Jacques is my amazing boss and our leader who started as employee number one back in, I think she started in February.

[00:04:25] And now here we are in November and we have 30 employees as part of the team.

[00:04:30] So we've grown quickly and we're just getting started.

[00:04:36] Before we hit record, you and I were just both reflecting on how wonderful Marie-Eve is.

[00:04:40] So if she's listening, we just need to give her a bit of a shout out.

[00:04:43] A big shout out to her.

[00:04:45] She's a wonderful person and a wonderful boss and colleague.

[00:04:49] Yeah, she's great.

[00:04:50] So what was it like being the 87th country to launch?

[00:04:57] I know there's a lot of the Canadian marketers who get these sort of launch playbooks from the US or from sort of other regions.

[00:05:05] But how well covered were the launch tactics when you're number 87?

[00:05:10] Or was it a particularly unique launch given the access or pay requirements in Canada?

[00:05:17] Like how much of that did you get to author versus you were following a path that was already set?

[00:05:23] That's an excellent question.

[00:05:25] And I mean, I don't think anyone, I don't know anyone in Canada who's been able to launch 87th in the world.

[00:05:31] So it was a new experience for the entire team.

[00:05:35] And I would say it was the absolute best of both worlds.

[00:05:38] First of all, this company's values are a set of values that really resonate with me.

[00:05:44] And I would say they're anchored in trust and support and collaboration, which is phenomenal.

[00:05:51] So we stepped into a situation where we had access to people that have 15 plus years of experience with the product in markets that are similar to ours.

[00:06:01] And so there was so much that we could learn from them.

[00:06:03] And yet at the same time, as eager as this team was to impart their wisdom and share knowledge.

[00:06:09] Also, they were incredibly trusting of us and empowered us to kind of take charge and show them, you know, what we felt needed to be done here, you know, to have a successful launch.

[00:06:23] And so what we ultimately did was take the foundation of what they'd already learned and married it with our Canadian knowledge and all the homework that we did over the summer.

[00:06:36] And we're able to really build a plan that was, you know, I think super solid and aligned to the plan.

[00:06:44] Like at all levels, everybody was on board.

[00:06:46] And I never felt at one point or at any point that I was being forced to go down any one path or the other.

[00:06:52] This was truly a chance for us to show the world, you know, what we can do on our own.

[00:06:58] So it's been great so far.

[00:07:00] I mean, it's been a month, not even a month yet.

[00:07:03] Early days.

[00:07:04] But you know what?

[00:07:04] There's a lot of folks that you would chat to a month into launch who would have, you know, be pretty bruised and battered by this point.

[00:07:13] Getting across the line to launch is only part of it, but that can be a really tough road.

[00:07:18] So it sounds a little bit like it was the kind of best of both worlds where you've got a whole bunch of institutional knowledge, but also lots of oxygen in the room to bring your own ideas and thoughts and energy.

[00:07:30] And that's fantastic.

[00:07:32] Yeah.

[00:07:32] Thank you.

[00:07:32] So now that we're kind of situated in where you've been spending time in part of your professional life, take me back a little bit to when did the Women Leaders in Pharma start?

[00:07:45] Give me a bit of a sense of the organization.

[00:07:46] Then we'll kind of dig into the work that you guys are doing.

[00:07:49] Sure.

[00:07:50] So the Women Leaders in Pharma organization celebrated five years, maybe six months ago.

[00:07:57] So I think we're getting close to six years now.

[00:08:00] And I would say that it has grown significantly over the past couple of years.

[00:08:06] And up until that point, I think it grew from a labor of love of the founders of the organization and word of mouth.

[00:08:16] And so it was a really an organic kind of growth that occurred with Women Leaders in Pharma.

[00:08:20] And I think we found that we were able to attract like-minded women who play multiple roles in their lives, both professionally and personally at home.

[00:08:32] And kind of needed another outlet that was not necessarily within their work environment, but still gave them a chance to connect with women that understood their work environment.

[00:08:44] And so it sort of kind of grew from there.

[00:08:47] And I've been involved now for about a year and a half.

[00:08:50] And I have just been blown away by the level of contribution that this volunteer-based organization receives.

[00:09:00] So everyone, you know, does this on a volunteer basis.

[00:09:03] We have a committee of, I think, 10 executive lead team members that work with me, each of them volunteering their time.

[00:09:11] And each of them are leading a team of women.

[00:09:14] Some teams are as large as 10 to 15 or more people.

[00:09:19] Others are two or three people.

[00:09:21] But the commitment and the engagement that they give is absolutely phenomenal.

[00:09:27] And the bar is high.

[00:09:30] I think the value of the work that they deliver for the organization is exceptional.

[00:09:36] And so when it started five or six years ago, was the focus, let's do some networking events to make sure that we connect women who are at similar points in their career or women who are at different points in their career and they can learn from each other.

[00:09:51] Was there a formal mentorship component to it?

[00:09:54] So what did the early days look like?

[00:09:56] Appreciating that you weren't there in the earliest of days.

[00:09:59] But talk a little bit about kind of where it started.

[00:10:01] And then were there major inflection points over the last couple of years where something happened?

[00:10:09] Either it was maybe some corporate contributions or you stood up the awards program that really shaped a next chapter in the organization?

[00:10:17] So as you mentioned, I wasn't there in the very beginning, but the founding members really kind of stumbled, I think, upon an idea.

[00:10:27] And it came, as I understand it, just coincidentally, they were talking one day and just sort of exchanging on their experiences within the pharmaceutical industry and balancing work and trying to get promoted and be top performers in the workplace.

[00:10:44] While also coming home and, you know, probably managing a family and a home and all the things that that that involves.

[00:10:52] And the concept became right away all about women supporting women.

[00:10:59] You know, there was a recognition that women play all kinds of roles.

[00:11:03] But yet, you know, stepping into an environment which, you know, until not that long ago was still very male, male driven.

[00:11:10] And it still is right.

[00:11:11] There's a lot of males sitting in leadership roles.

[00:11:14] And at that time, especially when the organization just started, I think that a lot of times women used to step in or still do to those kinds of environments,

[00:11:25] feeling like they need to kind of mute the other parts of their lives and make it look as though all they ever do is work, right?

[00:11:33] All they all they have in their lives is their career because they're competing against each other and against men for for promotions.

[00:11:40] And so this was a group that realized or recognized that women need a safe space to like be real and authentic and share the reality of the load that they carry.

[00:11:52] There's there's a lot on our shoulders. And so that was the beginning.

[00:11:56] And it started with some networking events, to your point.

[00:11:59] And it really was about getting to know each other.

[00:12:01] And I understand that the members used to float around the room and be like, hey, I really think that you should meet so and so over here.

[00:12:08] Come with me. And they would sort of grab each other by the elbow and say, here, this is, you know, Sarah.

[00:12:13] And I think you and Sarah have a lot in common and you should talk.

[00:12:16] And they they kind of ignited this opportunity for women to get to know each other on a social level.

[00:12:22] And just kind of connect on on what they're doing and how they could help and support each other.

[00:12:28] So that was the beginning, which is lovely, because I think we've all been at those networking events.

[00:12:35] And if you don't sort of go with a plus one, you know, you end up kind of, you know, floating around the coffee machine or the snacks or something.

[00:12:43] And, you know, not everyone feels comfortable just wandering up to somebody else with a name tag and getting introduced.

[00:12:49] So if part of what can be happening and I'm thinking for folks who are listening, who are maybe considering going to an event or haven't been to one yet,

[00:12:57] to know that it's an environment where, you know, you'll be shepherded a little bit to make those connections.

[00:13:03] Absolutely. And that's the whole point.

[00:13:05] I think the culture that's been created, you know, from the very beginning is really all about that.

[00:13:10] You can come alone and you will leave with friends.

[00:13:13] I promise it's a very approachable environment.

[00:13:17] And that's that's our mission.

[00:13:19] Like it's really about supporting each other and being authentic and trying to kind of make new connections and discover new opportunities and just chat on what's going on and in your life.

[00:13:31] And how how can I help you and how can you help me?

[00:13:33] And so, yeah, we don't want any stiff environments at all.

[00:13:37] So we invite everyone to just come and network and socialize and hopefully have fun and learn something, too.

[00:13:43] How does pharma as an industry, at least in your review, stack up against other similar large verticals when it comes to things like percentage of women in leadership positions, pay equity, you know, leave policies, sort of more formal mentorship?

[00:14:04] Like how are we as an industry doing comparatively and and how are you seeing it change if you're seeing a change at all?

[00:14:12] I actually feel that we're in a very positive movement forward towards seeing women progressing in leadership roles.

[00:14:21] I think that the health care industry in general kind of lends itself well to, you know, stereotypical female kind of leadership traits and qualities.

[00:14:31] I think, you know, we are nurturing by nature leaders and our industry being so focused on the well-being of others and focused on patients means that people at the top of the organization need to share those types of empathetic values.

[00:14:51] And so I don't know if that's the reason why, but I've always felt quite well supported actually in our industry.

[00:14:59] I have noticed more women sitting in leadership roles over the course of my 20, 20 something years in this industry.

[00:15:10] And I can tell you the last company that I worked for was actually all female.

[00:15:15] And that was like not on purpose.

[00:15:17] It just sort of happened that every time there was a job opening, the people that that applied, you know, the ones that came out on top always were the women.

[00:15:26] The leadership team was entirely female.

[00:15:29] We eventually did have one male head of sales, but the rest was all women.

[00:15:33] And yeah, I mean, it was a different energy, but an extremely productive one, one that recognized that, you know, we all carry a load at home as well.

[00:15:43] And I thought it was super effective.

[00:15:45] So to answer your question, I mean, I think that we're probably doing a bit better than some other markets or other industries.

[00:15:51] To your point, good representation doesn't necessarily mean the work is done.

[00:15:57] Totally.

[00:15:57] Totally.

[00:15:57] So when you think about Women Leaders in Pharma and the kind of work that you guys are doing, what is your, what's your focus today?

[00:16:04] We talked a little bit about where you started.

[00:16:05] What's, what's the focus today?

[00:16:07] And at the end of the year, you know, when the volunteers get together and you reflect back on the year, what does success look like for you guys?

[00:16:14] Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:16:15] And so, you know, our vision hasn't changed since the beginning.

[00:16:18] And it really is about women supporting women to reach their full potential, right?

[00:16:23] And to, to, to get as far as they possibly can, or as far as they personally want to.

[00:16:28] So that's another caveat to remember.

[00:16:30] Not everybody wants to be at the top, right?

[00:16:32] No.

[00:16:33] But it is about getting people to where they want to go.

[00:16:36] And our, our mission then kind of feeds, you know, where we spend time and what we offer.

[00:16:42] And so we do have a group of certified coaches who are accessible to all of the members and bring a wealth of experience and knowledge or excellent one-on-one for anyone who, who wants it.

[00:16:57] We also have a mentorship program where we will pair mentees and mentors.

[00:17:02] This is a free offering to all members of the Women Leaders in Pharma.

[00:17:08] And the matches are not like assigned, they get to choose, you know, who they want to work with.

[00:17:13] And then we offer a variety of virtual and live events.

[00:17:18] Some of the virtual events are group coaching events.

[00:17:21] They're, they're done once a month.

[00:17:22] They're free for, for members to attend on various topics of interest.

[00:17:26] And then live events happen a few times throughout the year.

[00:17:31] And all of those are really designed to tap into, you know, addressing the gaps that women express that they need help with in their career path as they continue to move along, along the path.

[00:17:44] So hopefully by attending some of those, not only, you know, do they learn something, but they also get to meet others who could maybe, you know, help them in the future or, or they could just learn something from.

[00:17:56] So, and I just want to loop back to what you first said when you answered that question.

[00:18:00] So everybody who's a member is going to get access to coaching and can get assigned a mentor?

[00:18:07] The mentorship program is included.

[00:18:09] Yes, it's, it's free once you pay for your membership and you're a member for the one year.

[00:18:15] So yes, that's fully included.

[00:18:17] We have group coaching, virtual group coaching once a month.

[00:18:21] So you just click in, it's a over lunch hour and it's led by one of our certified coaches and it's awesome.

[00:18:28] I always leave with nuggets of something and I've always met three or four new friends every time.

[00:18:34] And then the coaching program, you do get one free session with a coach of your choice.

[00:18:41] And then, or you can meet with, I think, multiple coaches if you like, if you have time for that.

[00:18:47] And then you get to choose, you know, who you want to work with.

[00:18:50] And then from there, it is based on that, that individual coaches rates.

[00:18:55] Basically, you have your own individual arrangement with them.

[00:18:58] And I'm just looking on the, just looking on the website.

[00:19:00] And for example, the next coaching session looks like it's in January and it's about goal setting for a transformer of 2025.

[00:19:08] So timely, really practical, like kick the year off with some support, getting kind of focused and dialed in for what 2025 looks like.

[00:19:17] Exactly.

[00:19:18] So we always try to match our topics with whatever our members tell us they want to talk about.

[00:19:24] So we do an annual survey.

[00:19:26] We ask them, you know, what is it that you want us to focus on?

[00:19:29] The new year is always about new year, new you, new goals, new aspirations.

[00:19:33] And so that's the intent for that first session of the year.

[00:19:38] And what's it been like for you being president?

[00:19:41] I could hear when you talk about Women Leaders in Pharma, it comes through in your voice how passionate you are.

[00:19:46] But you talk about a balance and obligations.

[00:19:49] And so, you know, you're now juggling a launch, president of Women Leaders in Pharma.

[00:19:55] I'm guessing probably some responsibilities and distractions at home.

[00:19:59] You must love it to be carving off as much time as you have been for Women Leaders.

[00:20:06] So just talk to me about like, what is it that you're getting out of being the president that's keeping you so excited?

[00:20:13] That's an excellent question.

[00:20:15] And I think ultimately, like what you just described, you know, is true.

[00:20:18] And I think of myself as, you know, the very normal, average in some level woman with a career, right?

[00:20:30] And what better representation at the Women Leaders in Pharma than someone who feels the reality of what it means to have a career and a life at the same time.

[00:20:41] And so I really, I think I've always been on a personal mission to show that, you know, you can have it all if you are able to, you know, organize yourself in such a way that it's possible.

[00:20:57] And so I would say, number one, you know, I'm here because I love the mission of this organization.

[00:21:03] I am someone who, you know, has had the most amazing life experiences through my career, you know, because of this industry.

[00:21:11] I've been given so many cool opportunities.

[00:21:14] I've met amazing people.

[00:21:15] I get to work globally.

[00:21:17] Like I'm so grateful to the industry because it's embellished my life, you know, on so many levels.

[00:21:23] And I want to empower and support women at all stages of their career to be able to also benefit from everything this industry has to offer.

[00:21:35] I think when I started, it wasn't necessarily available to me.

[00:21:38] I had to figure it out.

[00:21:39] There were some hard lessons.

[00:21:41] You know, I had to really, you know, how do you go from a sales rep position to a head office job where, you know, you're kind of thrown in there not knowing anything.

[00:21:50] And I felt like I was looking for a mentor and it was a bit confusing.

[00:21:54] And anyway, you figure it out.

[00:21:56] And I think you need to do part of that.

[00:21:59] But why not support and facilitate as smooth a transition for women if you can?

[00:22:04] And so that's been the driving force for me.

[00:22:09] And then when I got here, I met amazing people, just great people who come from all kinds of companies from across the country, most in Montreal or Toronto.

[00:22:18] But they bring their own flavors, their own experiences.

[00:22:22] And I learned from them so much.

[00:22:24] And so the connections I've made personally in the role have kept me here.

[00:22:30] And then what a great challenge to really like elevate an organization and help it move forward and get, you know, get bigger so that it can help more people.

[00:22:42] And that's been the focus that I think I've brought is really kind of streamlining a strategy for the organization and a way to organize ourselves and attract more members so that we can therefore fund, you know, more offerings and reach more people.

[00:23:00] It's that was a wonderful answer.

[00:23:04] Oh, good.

[00:23:05] Yeah, no, totally.

[00:23:07] Yeah, it's just it's it's that adage of, you know, if you love it, it doesn't feel like work.

[00:23:13] Yeah, it must be a very exciting place to be in and motivating enough that when you close down your CSL email, which probably never happens, but step away from your CSL email, you're excited to open up your women leaders and farm email.

[00:23:25] It's true.

[00:23:26] And I think, you know, two things.

[00:23:27] One, something I learned in my personal side of my life is that many hands make for light work, right?

[00:23:32] You learn that when you have like a ton of dishes to do after like Christmas dinner or something.

[00:23:37] And then all your your aunts and uncles.

[00:23:39] No, usually not the uncles, if I'm honest, the aunts come around and cousins.

[00:23:45] But so the fact that we have so many volunteers help help us helps us, you know, manage, I think the workload.

[00:23:53] And then the other thing that I always tell the team is, you know, this is this is meant to be something that makes you feel good.

[00:24:01] Right. You should be happy that like you should do this because it makes you happy because you're getting something out of it in return.

[00:24:08] And if you're not, then maybe it's time to move on and give someone else an opportunity to step in.

[00:24:14] And, you know, we haven't had any resignations.

[00:24:16] People are staying.

[00:24:18] And because I think everyone has their own purpose after being there, but they they're committed and they're there because they want to be.

[00:24:26] And so that kind of approach just breeds, you know, I think a successful culture and mindset.

[00:24:33] So, yeah, happy people do happy work.

[00:24:38] We'll be right back.

[00:24:39] As the medical director at No Fixed Addressed Health, I've seen how the most impactful health care marketing isn't just creative.

[00:24:48] It's also deeply informed and accurate in an industry as complex as pharma.

[00:24:53] Ensuring that our work is medically sound and meets rigorous regulatory standards is essential.

[00:24:58] But we believe it can go further than that.

[00:25:00] At NFA Health, having an in-house medical and regulatory team means we're working side by side with our strategists and creatives from day one.

[00:25:08] This collaboration helps us create content that's both compliant and compelling, bridging the gap between scientific accuracy and meaningful human connection.

[00:25:18] In the end, it's not just about what we're allowed to say.

[00:25:21] It's about finding a way to say it that matters.

[00:25:23] Explore how we're blending science and creativity at NFAHealth.com.

[00:25:34] You mentioned it in your answer, you know, sort of being able to kind of have it all.

[00:25:38] And it makes me think about your comment about career growth and not everybody wants to get to the top.

[00:25:43] I also have to imagine that for someone, probably at any point in their career, but potentially in the midpoint of their career, having folks that they can connect with who are more senior helps them define what their own personal version of having it all is.

[00:25:59] Because having it all looks, you know, different for different people.

[00:26:03] And sometimes it takes a lot of different signals for folks to be able to try to figure out what that looks like for them.

[00:26:10] Absolutely. And it changes, right? Over the span of your life.

[00:26:13] This is my other learning now in my late 40s is like, oh, my gosh, like you go through so many phases of life while you're managing your career, right?

[00:26:22] I started out like, you know, single and all that.

[00:26:25] And then you get married and then and then some of us got divorced and then things happen.

[00:26:29] And all along the way, there's your your career is still there drumming along with you.

[00:26:34] And so your goals probably shift and change depending on your reality and, you know, what's what's happening in your world.

[00:26:44] And and also just you grow up and you have a different idea, you know, of what you want.

[00:26:49] And, you know, I'm I'm at a point where my kids are almost leaving me because they're in high school.

[00:26:55] And now I'm thinking, oh, my God, I need to spend more time with them again. Right.

[00:26:59] I went through this little phase where they they were finally super independent.

[00:27:03] And I'm like, oh, this is great. I don't have to like they're not crawling all over me.

[00:27:07] And I enjoyed that. But then now it's like, oh, no, they're they're they're going to leave soon.

[00:27:12] So so as far as, you know, working all the time and really trying to kind of balance things and make sure that I go to, you know, cheerleading competitions and football games and hockey rinks and all that, because that's what's important to me right now.

[00:27:26] But in three or four years, you know, probably I'll have a different vision for where I want to go next.

[00:27:33] And that's the same with most women.

[00:27:35] I just I just came back from looking at universities with my oldest son and I'm quite acutely aware of of the passage of time right now, for sure.

[00:27:45] But but I also you know, I got divorced quite early on into running the agency and I shared custody with my kids.

[00:27:51] So I have some sense of what it's like to have competing priorities between sort of child care and work.

[00:28:01] And, you know, I would have to leave at three thirty and get my kids or they'd be standing on the side of the road right in front of their public school.

[00:28:07] And exactly. And and, you know, then you'd get back on line at night when they when they go to bed.

[00:28:12] You just really hope they fall asleep and then, you know, get back on and do the work.

[00:28:16] And then all of a sudden, you know, they're teenagers and you don't even know if they're home for dinner.

[00:28:20] And that that provides a different type of space to get work done in a bit of a different way.

[00:28:28] But it would be very much missing out on understanding the context of a full person.

[00:28:35] If that piece of their obligations in life for people who have kids or they might be taking care of a parent or they might have other obligations or whatever their thing is,

[00:28:43] like that whole person view into individuals, I think, is really important.

[00:28:49] And it sounds like women leaders and pharma and that coaching, mentoring and connecting gives people a space where they can talk about that with with other folks who have either gone through it or who are going through it.

[00:29:02] And if not, at least providing some guidance can at least commiserate.

[00:29:06] Right. Absolutely.

[00:29:08] And I think this is maybe where we still have a way to go as far as, you know, the workplace and really embracing like your whole self.

[00:29:17] And and of course, you know, you need to come to work and perform.

[00:29:22] Right. But I think that, you know, depending on who you're working with or who are you working for, there's varying levels of support available to you.

[00:29:31] Yeah. I do have a theory that I need to share with you.

[00:29:35] And I my theory is that, you know, covid, which was like, in my view, the best thing that happened to us in so many ways, kind of changed so much, of course, in our working arrangements.

[00:29:47] And I think it enabled us to get a peek into people's real worlds.

[00:29:55] Right. Because all of a sudden we were all connected from home virtually.

[00:30:00] And all of a sudden you're meeting spouses and children and pets.

[00:30:05] And now you get a full view of who someone really is.

[00:30:09] And until that moment, you know, you saw just the working version.

[00:30:13] But but I think this was a chance to really understand, you know, what someone is bringing to work every day and naturally, you know, connect with them on a different level.

[00:30:23] And as leaders in organizations, for me anyway, it helps me have even more kind of empathy and support, you know, want to support them so that they could, you know, whatever, pick up their kid after school or be there on time to make dinner because their their partner isn't going to be there that night.

[00:30:42] Because you kind of know the whole family.

[00:30:44] Yes. Yes.

[00:30:45] So it really changed.

[00:30:47] And I felt a shift, not just with me, but with others.

[00:30:50] And I think that permanent shift of these hybrid work arrangements are like the best thing that's ever happened.

[00:30:57] I mean, I couldn't do what I do without the opportunity to work from home three days a week.

[00:31:04] You know, I am I'm actually a widow, Neil.

[00:31:07] So I'm fully 100 percent on my own with my kids.

[00:31:10] And I don't get the the trade off where I get to send them, you know, for a few days.

[00:31:15] And so to to me, like to be able to be home those three days a week and, you know, make sure that I've prepped everything, that they can have dinner when they get back or that I can end a meeting and just flip into the kitchen.

[00:31:27] Yeah.

[00:31:27] Like it's a lifesaver.

[00:31:29] That must be absolutely transformative for you.

[00:31:31] Oh, my gosh.

[00:31:32] I couldn't I couldn't be.

[00:31:34] I mean, I think about before COVID, I used to live in Toronto and work for Lily.

[00:31:38] And we lived in Etobicoke and our office is in Scarborough.

[00:31:42] And I just can't believe it.

[00:31:44] Like we used to go five days a week.

[00:31:46] Right.

[00:31:47] Like, yeah, it's insane to me when I think about it now.

[00:31:50] I would leave the house at 6 a.m., drop off the babies at the daycare, sit in traffic, you know, on the gardener, get to the office at nine and then have to leave the office at four to pick them up before six and then get home in time to put them to bed.

[00:32:04] Like it was just I guess I was younger, but thinking about it makes me exhausted.

[00:32:09] Yeah.

[00:32:10] And and and like not, you know, five days a week, not see your house in the light of day because you.

[00:32:17] Yeah.

[00:32:17] You know, you're at least from whatever November.

[00:32:21] Maybe it was cleaner, though.

[00:32:22] Yeah, well, but but you're, you know, leaving in the dark and pick them up in the dark.

[00:32:26] And and there's also like in that in that scenario, I think it's hard to be as present in both of the scenarios in your life.

[00:32:39] Yeah.

[00:32:39] You know, as a as a as a as a mom, as a as a leader at work, you know, as you as you've got part of your your brain is when you're a leader at work is trying to think about pickups and drop offs.

[00:32:52] And, you know, and then you're you're spending so much time on the road that that your time with your kids is compressed.

[00:32:59] And yeah, the normalization of hold on a sec and someone just pops off camera for a sec because their kids just came home from school or they you know, or they're getting them off on their way.

[00:33:11] And it doesn't happen in every single meeting.

[00:33:15] But think about in 2019, if first of all, in 2019, if you're on a Zoom call with anybody, that was pretty rare.

[00:33:21] But, you know, in 2019, if if somebody in your kind of work universe was like, hold on a sec, I'm just going to pause this meeting for five minutes because my kid just got home.

[00:33:31] You'd be like, what the heck is going on?

[00:33:33] Right.

[00:33:34] And you wouldn't do that.

[00:33:35] No.

[00:33:35] And now and now, yeah, you'd be sort of, you know, telling your kids not to come anywhere near you.

[00:33:41] And now people have permission to do that.

[00:33:44] And and I do think that that's a huge change.

[00:33:47] It's a massive change.

[00:33:48] And it's that's it.

[00:33:50] You hit the nail on the head.

[00:33:51] It's the permission.

[00:33:53] And I think great leaders today, you know, give you permission to take care of the other things in your life that are urgent.

[00:34:00] At the end of the day, what matters is that you're performing.

[00:34:03] Right.

[00:34:03] Like I have a team and I hold them accountable to their performance objectives for the year.

[00:34:10] And if they need to go and take their child to the doctor this afternoon and they're going to be gone for a couple of hours, honestly, Neil, like I don't care.

[00:34:18] It's fine.

[00:34:19] It's really fine with me.

[00:34:20] The end of the day, though, you know, we have a presentation next week.

[00:34:24] Are we going to be ready on time?

[00:34:26] You know, we have, I don't know, a consult meeting with a group of physician advisors.

[00:34:30] Can we make sure we're ready?

[00:34:32] And those are the things that matter.

[00:34:33] And I mean, we're not having meetings at night and on the weekends either.

[00:34:37] This is a big rule for me.

[00:34:38] And I don't communicate with people on weekends or evenings.

[00:34:41] So, yeah, you need to get it done when you can.

[00:34:44] But I think that, you know, being flexible and giving people permission to be authentic in the workplace just braids better work because people are more at ease with themselves and with what they're doing.

[00:34:58] There are still, unfortunately, a lot of environments where that sort of leading with empathy isn't as much the norm as you described.

[00:35:10] You know, I think about, you know, there's a lot of agency environments where the person who puts the most time in their timesheet wins.

[00:35:16] And, you know, it's just not a sustainable way to, I think, get the best work out of people or to have people be the best versions of themselves.

[00:35:27] So, again, I think, you know, sort of thinking back about women who are members of Women Leaders in Pharma to be able to have a community not only to help accelerate them when they're on a certain trajectory,

[00:35:41] but also to hold a mirror up, I imagine, on certain occasions and say, it doesn't need to be like that.

[00:35:48] Or here is how to handle that situation that's really challenging because, unfortunately, there's still a lot of situations in the workplace that are really challenging.

[00:35:57] And having someone who's that kind of, you know, that safe call or that safe space to have those conversations, I think, has got to be really, really meaningful.

[00:36:06] True. It is. And you're right. It's not everywhere.

[00:36:08] And there actually there are people that really enjoy working so much and punching their time card and putting it as many hours as they possibly can.

[00:36:15] And that makes them happy. Right.

[00:36:17] Yep. And there's always going to be that that kind of subset of people.

[00:36:21] But I think for me, I kind of figured out somewhere along the way, probably when I started to manage people that, you know,

[00:36:28] at first you try and be a boss because you're so serious about it.

[00:36:30] And now you're the boss. And I was like in my early 30s and I didn't know how to be a boss, really.

[00:36:35] I was like, let me just try this.

[00:36:38] But then I figured out that like anything in life, it goes better if you're just kind of yourself.

[00:36:44] And as it turns out, you know, I am more on the empathetic sort of kind side.

[00:36:50] And I just accepted that.

[00:36:52] I'm like, you know, I'm going to lead with kindness.

[00:36:53] Like that's who I am.

[00:36:54] It doesn't mean that I'm not going to have a clear vision or expectations.

[00:36:59] And it's not doesn't mean that we're not going to have a conversation if those expectations are not met.

[00:37:03] We will.

[00:37:04] Yeah. Kindness. Kindness does not by its nature mean a lack of accountability.

[00:37:10] Exactly. That's exactly right.

[00:37:12] But I think that through the course of my career, I've had to have kind of the confidence to stay in my zone.

[00:37:19] Right. That's that is who I am.

[00:37:20] And then you bump up against other people who don't have that same approach and they don't quite like that you do.

[00:37:27] But you know what? Stay true. Like do it your way.

[00:37:32] Yeah.

[00:37:32] That's the best way. It always is.

[00:37:34] And find the spaces where you're valued.

[00:37:37] Like, yeah, you know, both of the professional spaces that you spend time in, you were talking about how supportive and empowering your boss is or your manager is and how empowering it is to be leading the Women Leaders in Farm Organization right now.

[00:37:52] And part of that is about navigating to environments that value you and your approach where you feel you can give back.

[00:38:01] Absolutely. Thank you.

[00:38:02] Start to kind of, you know, magnetize towards like minded people at some point in your life.

[00:38:07] Right. And you find your people.

[00:38:09] I definitely feel that way in my work environment and at the WLP.

[00:38:13] I think working for someone like Marie-Eve Jacques just gives you permission, you know, and we all work so hard.

[00:38:20] Oh, my gosh. There's so much to do right now. We're up.

[00:38:23] We're up to our eyeballs. But, you know, number one is we trust each other.

[00:38:27] We support each other. We tag in and out if we need to for various reasons.

[00:38:33] And Marie-Eve's created a culture of trust and fun.

[00:38:38] Like we need to have fun. We're here so much.

[00:38:40] We spend so much time together. Let's try and enjoy ourselves.

[00:38:43] Yes. There has to be some levity in there somewhere.

[00:38:45] Yes.

[00:38:45] One of the things that I imagine is pretty foundational to Women Leaders in Pharma are your Shine Bright Awards.

[00:38:53] I know they've gone on for a couple of years now.

[00:38:55] Talk to me a little bit about what they are.

[00:38:57] And I think they're coming up very soon, right?

[00:39:00] Yeah. So it is coming up on November 21st.

[00:39:02] It's an industry-wide event happening in two locations, one in Montreal, one in Toronto, simultaneously and somehow connected through, I don't know, some high technology.

[00:39:17] That allows us to see each other and co-present awards, you know, seamlessly from one city to the next.

[00:39:24] The event is sold out.

[00:39:26] So if you've missed your chance this year, you'll have to wait till next year.

[00:39:29] But we have over 250 people, I think, in Montreal and just over 200 in Toronto.

[00:39:37] So a large crowd and a great opportunity to network with others from our industry and most importantly, you know, celebrate those that have made a difference in supporting women in the pharma and biotech worlds.

[00:39:53] I'm going to ask you one last question.

[00:39:55] When you think back to that new sales rep version of Sophie, what advice would you give to yourself if you could have a conversation with yourself back at that age and stage?

[00:40:10] What advice would you give yourself?

[00:40:13] That's a great question.

[00:40:15] No one's ever asked me that.

[00:40:17] Two things, maybe.

[00:40:18] Trust the process.

[00:40:20] So, you know, when people offer you opportunities that maybe you don't think are a good fit for you or, I don't know, you don't think that you do well, you know, don't shut it down.

[00:40:31] Consider it.

[00:40:31] Like, be open to everything and trust that the organization is coming to you with something new or something different because they know what they're looking for and they believe that you're the good fit.

[00:40:43] So do it.

[00:40:44] I mean, I think you'll discover so many new paths and learn about yourself along the way.

[00:40:50] So be open and trust your process as you go.

[00:40:55] And also, by the same token, you know, have a bit of a roadmap in your mind and a vision of where you actually ideally would love to be.

[00:41:03] I always knew that I wanted to lead, you know, a marketing organization.

[00:41:07] I didn't think it was going to be in pharma or biotech, but here I am.

[00:41:12] And I think that keeping your eye on that, you know, but be open to those ebbs and flows and those little detours along the way is the key because it just makes you more knowledgeable and enriched.

[00:41:26] You know, I never would have thought I'd spend two years doing a Six Sigma black belt assignment, but I would say it's one of the most important phases of my career.

[00:41:39] And it stayed with me forever.

[00:41:44] Before we wrap up, I just want to give a quick note about the next Pharma Brands Conference.

[00:41:49] Creativity Now is happening next week on November 26th.

[00:41:52] And as I record this, we have all of two tickets left.

[00:41:55] The reception from the industry and our partners has been absolutely amazing.

[00:41:59] And I am really proud to bring all of you what I think is the only creativity-focused healthcare marketing event in Canada.

[00:42:07] A huge thanks to our partners, BMOD, Tank Worldwide, NFA Health, CPC, Changemakers, Dentsu Health, Color, and the Rounds.

[00:42:16] I hope to see you on the 26th.

[00:42:18] And I also hope you join me back here on December 4th for our next episode of the Pharma Brands Podcast.